Community Submissions

A Poker Player’s Guide To Fantasy Football

I funded my first year of college playing Texas hold ’em. Not bigtime, Late Night Poker hold ’em: Online low-stakes tables – up to eight at a time, up six hours a night. Starting off, I thought I was going to be the next Phil Ivey or Daniel Negreanu. Let me tell you, the novelty wears off fast and I burnt out. When it comes down to it, online poker is about grinding out a couple of big blinds/hour. But this isn’t a steady return – some nights you could get “stacked” multiple times, losing a whole buy-in in one hand and ending up down hundreds of big blinds at the end of the night. And of course, some nights you’re the beneficiary and end up stacking someone else. So how does this apply to Fantasy Football? The answer is a a simple but powerful concept: Expected Value.

 

Expected Value Explained

When you are experiencing swings of +/- 50 blinds/hour on a daily basis, yet your actual rate of return is only 1 or 2 blinds/hour, how can you be sure you’re making the right decisions? This kind of swing is known as variance. You’ve just lost your whole buy-in, but you had aces, and he lucked out on the river with a rubbish hand. But should you have known? Maybe you missed a tell…

Or maybe you made the correct decision with the information you had and simply lost against the odds. This is also termed “getting your money in when you’re ahead” or making a decision with positive Expected Value (+ EV)*. If you consistently make decisions with +EV, you will be successful in the long run. For example: Arsenal assets such as Santi Cazorla, Theo Walcott and Mesut Ozil were overwhelmingly backed to do well in the Gunner’s opening match at home to West Ham. Talk of “Walcott (C) fails”, etc. littered the match day comments. The clamouring for Dimitri Payet and kneejerk transfers began not long after.

I’ll use Hazard as an example, but this applies to every player. I gave the armband to Eden Hazard in Gameweek 1, as with the best information available I was making (in my judgement) a +EV decision. Hazard averaged 6.1 points per appearance last season; in simple terms, I’m expecting a return of 12.2 points from this fixture (for the sake of brevity I’m not going into depth on his stats here). Out of my squad, I was expecting the highest returns from Hazard, and therefore captained him.

As it panned out, Hazard blanked. I only got four points out of the 12.2 I expected. My Actual Value was four points, but my Expected Value was 12.2. I’ve attached a chart (http://i.imgur.com/uVXk6qq.png) illustrating three scenarios that could have happened (over several Gameweeks for ease of illustration).

The first is Negative Actual Value – you make decisions that over the long run are expected to return positive results. Imagine that Hazard has a 70% chance of scoring/assisting in any one match. That means that 30% of the time, he blanks. This was one of those occasions. That doesn’t mean that because he blanked, the decision was incorrect. This is a “bad beat”.

The second is Neutral Actual Value – you were expecting about 12.2 points, and Hazard bagged an assist and a BP. A return of 12 points means your Actual Value and Expected Value closely align – the decision was about as profitable as expected.

The third scenario is Positive Actual Value – Hazard goes on a rampage and comes away with a brace, an assist and maximum BP. Fantastic. However – this was not expected. There was maybe a 5% chance of this outcome. You did better than the information indicates you should have – you flopped the “nuts”, and if you’re on a streak of these results, you’re “running hot”.

Over the course of the season, you expect Actual Value and Expected Value to converge – in the long run, if you are making decisions with Positive Expected Value you will end up with a Positive Actual Value. If you are making decisions with Negative Actual Value, then vice versa.

Conclusion

The lesson here is to ignore the bad beats (when they are bad beats, and not the result of bad decisions), and ignore when you’re running hot (just because Leicester’s Riyad Mahrez scored twice doesn’t make captaining him a +EV decision). Points earned or missed out on don’t retrospectively justify a decision after the fact – make consistently correct decisions with the information available, and you’ll be rewarded in the long run. A word of warning though: there’s a saying in poker that “the long run is longer than you think”. Just try to strap down that knee in the mean-time.

*I’m heavily stretching the actual definition of some of these poker terms to suit FPL; poker nerds please be gentle.

85 Comments Post a Comment
  1. J0E
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • Has Moderation Rights
    • 14 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    Interesting perspective on fantasy football decision making. Thanks for posting.

  2. JamieLfc
    • 8 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    Cool

  3. Jigger & Pony
    • 10 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    Nice one

  4. JbeAh
    • 9 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    nice job

  5. nad
    • 9 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    Interesting article; thanks.

  6. DunderMonkey
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 13 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    Great article. I hope none of my mini league rivals read it and understand it, though.

  7. J0E
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • Has Moderation Rights
    • 14 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    Note: comments on community articles tend to be specific to that article. If you have another issue to discuss please use the latest article on the home page. Cheers.

  8. The Suspended One
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 11 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    Get the f in

    We all thought we were the next online star, then full tilt took our bank roll and we realized e currency sucks.

  9. Sheeeit
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 8 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    Really great article! My Knee has been going crazy though, I'm a hypocrite!

  10. DaisyDaisyDaisyDaisy
    • 10 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    Yep I play plenty of hold-em myself and see the similarities. Of course with poker there are varying styles too - tight, loose, small-ball etc.I also find you need to play when in exactly the right mood which is to not be affected by highs or lows, just make the right decisions with emotion taken out of it - and tiredness is a big factor too.

    As you say the long run normally prevails - but 38 GWs is not a particularly long run...

    1. invertebrate
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 9 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      I think 'tight' can now be renamed 'dullard'.

      1. DaisyDaisyDaisyDaisy
        • 10 Years
        8 years, 8 months ago

        Yeah and loose = Puntmaster...

  11. jkdeclan
    • 8 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    Another way of saying this is that the end does not condemn (?) the means. It is too soon to tell. However, the trouble with fantasy football is that we don't actually know if Hazard is the equivalent of pocket Aces this season. And we don't know if Mahrez just got lucky or if he's a good value suited connector. Only time will tell.

    1. Sheeeit
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 8 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      Yeah. It's almost like getting in Mahrez, Oxford & Co is the equivalent to a big bluff. It could pay off big if they continue to play well and their value rises, yet it could blow up in your face if you flippantly swap a big hitter out and they hit form the next week. It's a game of percentages and risk.

  12. Exdeo
    • 9 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    Interesting read, and of course it works, but there's a small but - in poker Ace is always Ace, a combination of 4 Aces for example is always bringing the same value, last year, this year, ten years ago. In FFL however you have to be ready that this year's Hazard will be different to last year's Hazard. He may well finish at the top of the game again, but my point is that to be a successful FFL player you need to reevaluate players, and the better you do, the more points you'll score. One GW is obviously not enough, but after first 3-4 we should have much better picture. Also I would advise to watch as much games as possible, because that is the best source to make a valuation, don't just RMT and only check stats. For example City's game - if you only care about stats you should jump on Toure and Kompany, but if you would watched the game you would know that Silva and Kolarov were the biggest threat and possible points source in a long run.

    1. stufail
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 13 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      Completely agree, although I think that the analogy still holds. Aces are aces, but their value changes each hand, just as Hazard's value changes each GW/season. It's how you adapt to the hand/season that makes the best player.

      And it's ultimately why I don't make any transfers in GW1. It's like making a bet after only seeing one of your cards, as there's so little information.

    2. DrChaos
      • 11 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      Completely agree with both of you. I force myself to watch all/most of the games on GW1 to have an idea about the players with actual threats (ie. Silva, Kolarov, Payet..). They can be picked out for further investigation 2,3 GWs down the line. From then on, combining with stats will give us a bigger picture and hopefully lead us to make the "correct" decisions to shape our season.

  13. Jacques The Lad
    • 9 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    I like this a lot

  14. pokern1nja09
    • 10 Years
    8 years, 8 months ago

    Nice article, I approve!

  15. Sir David White
      8 years, 8 months ago

      Fellow poker player here, love the article.

      There are indeed many similarities between fantasy football and poker. One of the fundamental similarities is that in both games you make decisions based on the information available but there are variables you can't control.

      I think the key takeaway is that when you make a decision in FPL, you make it with sound logic behind it and accept that you NEVER know what is actually going to happen. So afterwards you don't need to beat yourself if it goes wrong. All you can control is your decision and if you feel happy you made the right decision then you should be pleased.

    • jkdeclan
      • 8 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      As in poker, there is also an intangible factor called gut or instinct which cannot be discounted. It has little to do with stats, and more to do with one's reading of a specific situation and a trust that you're making the right decision *despite* what common sense says. Because sometimes, just sometimes, it is right to fold a straight or a flush. Stats help, but unless one has good instincts, a good feel for the game, then their use will be extremely limited.

    • invertebrate
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 9 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      I think the analogy may work even better in UFPL where the matchdays act like streets and you a) take a line pre-flop that makes optimal sense post-flop but then b) adjust per street as the situation nuances. Setting yourself up with as many options as possible before the flop is key to winning in the long run because it keeps your range open.

    • sboj
      • 9 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      Interesting article, but as a former poker player I have to say that you completely diminished the qualitative part of fantasy football, which plays a big role in assessing what the actual values are. When you go in poker with pocket aces against a lower pair the odds are always the same, regardless who are you against or what time of the year it is. However expected value of players change, according to schedules, their form, form of their teammates, injuries/fitness etc. Setting the expected value on a yearly average from previous season can be massively a misleading statistic. Fantasy is much more nuanced on this part of the breakdown of the expected values. You need a mix of longer term prospects with short term prospects to achieve balance in team. Few player who bring in 3-4 points each week and don't require transfer for 15 weeks, and few explosive players who you keep for 3-4 weeks only to maximise potential of the $ you work with and the transfers you get.

      I captained Hazard in week 1 and I agree that it was a bad beat. I am fine with the decision, because I was trying to hedge risk, by giving him the armband against other teams. I was pretty certain that I want to get rid off Hazard the week after, to fund Aguero week 4. He could have scored 2 and 57 percent of teams would jump away from me, which would be devastating, while I dont really care about those 2 percent that started Mahrez. However, overall I completely agree that people read too much into points they left behind and try to chase the points, what are the chances Mahrez will have more 15plus points games, if Sanchez one of the most explosive weapons achieve the mark last year maybe 3-4 times? I would say keep calm and carry on, Mahrez will likely do it once more at best, is it worth the transfers and keeping him in the team? I don't think so until I see that Leicester is a top half team and he can consistently produce.

    • Mr Pink
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      About time! I've been nagging about the difference between good decisions and good outcomes on here for ages. Good to see that I have others thinking the same way as I do.

    • Rhinos
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      Great post mate.
      I'm a poker nerd myself and you make very good points.
      The big difference with poker though is that whilst if you get it in good every time you'll win in the long run, it's a statistical inevitability, the cards gave no memory or form.
      If Hazard blanks there may be more to it than variance ie form, formation injury etc.
      Having said that, poker is a great help for playing ff because it schools you to be calm in the face of adversity, a big help

    • Ruth_NZ
      • 9 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      I do play poker and I understand what you are saying. The broad principle is correct, of course, but there is a major hidden error lurking inside what you say.

      "I gave the armband to Eden Hazard in Gameweek 1, as with the best information available I was making (in my judgement) a +EV decision." There it is. "With the best information available".

      Now, the thing is that Poker is, perhaps, 50% mathematics and 50% psychology. The mathematics are that if your opponent needs a J on the river to beat you and you have one in your hand he only has 3 chances in 46 (around 15 to 1) of winning. The best poker players know the mathematics back to front.

      The psychology is pointed to in the phrase "don't play your cards, play your opponent's cards". If he is weak you can often force him to fold even if you are weaker. Online the psychology is harder to read than face-to-face but it's not impossible to get a read on an opponent by watching how they play and "get your money in first" works online just as well as in person.

      So, let's compare these 2 elements with fantasy football. The mathematical element is what you pointed to in the phrase "with the best information available". But that is very moot. We are not dealing with mathematical probabilities as with a deck of 52 inanimate cards. We are dealing with a vast range of probabilities and possibilities influenced by a plethora of features including team confidence, skill and form, individual confidence, skill and form, manager confidence, skill and current mindset and the host of external factors that can influence those including current physical, emotional and mental fitness.

      So, I know you simplified for the sake of brevity but the idea that "with the best information available" you could expect 6 points from Hazard in any game is just wrong. It says you have nothing else to go on than last season's stats. But you do. It is called judgement.

      Now, judgement is not surefire, you can only make judgements that you think will improve your probability of success; just as in poker good judgements will never guarantee it in any one hand. But it is very easy to hide behind the idea that "I made the right decision with the information available" and call anyone that says you made a mistake "captain hindsight". The problem is that you may not have considered all the available information, actually, and you may not have judged it well either. In that case by saying "I did the right thing, it was just a bad beat" you are actually sticking your head in the sand and refusing to learn.

      That's the major, hidden error.

      I could write reams about this because I haven't even touched the element of psychology and the two ways to beat "the herd", the implications of the fact that fantasy football is not a zero-sum game as poker is and the constituent element of "luck" which is more of a feature in fantasy football than in poker. But that would take ages.

      The most important thing in fantasy football (once you thoroughly understand the mechanics of the game) is to always be improving your judgement and decision-making process. Creating an artificially small version of "the information available" can easily be a cop-out that will prevent you from doing so.

      1. Rhinos
        • 10 Years
        8 years, 8 months ago

        In an ideal world you are right but is it possible to get to a level where your brain can assimilate just the right info and ignore everything else. Eg I'd be interested to know what makes Hazard not a good pick at home to Swansea?

        1. sboj
          • 9 Years
          8 years, 8 months ago

          I had doubts about Hazard in first 10 weeks or so for the hefty price tag. The red flags I had over him, was pre-season form, Chelsea's long break and championship hangover, which was quite apparent at the Community Shield and the tactic that I recognised last year = Mou is saving Hazard early in the season and plays him deeper in the field saving him from physical punishments of the BPL. When they went one man down Hazard suddenly started playing a lot more actively. I think it's an order from the chosen one to Hazard to rely on others early on in the season, he knows Chelski is not particularly deep. Those would be for me small red flags, but really nothing that would be a deal breaker or make the pick unreasonable.

          Plus, on the top of it we had the ridiculous ownership, which by itself outweighs these smaller red flags, as Hazard could have still score a penalty and an assist for 14 points. I don't think there is a strong argument against Hazard C week 1, only smaller indications of doubts. I hedged that, by making a plan to get him out week 2 and move to Aguero in process.

      2. tm245
        • 12 Years
        8 years, 8 months ago

        Spot on, Ruth.

    • Darren Caskey
      • 13 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      Great article.

      Ruth_NZ, i disagree with you.

      As pointed out in the article, Hazard was the player with the highest expectation of points this weekend.

      This was based on goal scorer odds, goal assist odds, clean sheet odds, BPS odds etc.

      I don`t remember the exact odds but Eden Hazard was roughly 2.5 to score. So he`ll score roughly 40% of the time home to Swansea.

      All information regarding the Premier League is so "available" for everyone. Of course, it`s possible to beat the odds, but barely. Pinnacle have a ~98% market on Premier League.

      Example, Aston Villa vs Man United this weekend. Pinnacle`s odds is currently:
      Aston Villa 6.2
      Draw 4.06
      Man Utd 1.632.

      So if you place:

      Aston Villa: £26,32
      Draw: £40,2
      Man Utd: £100

      You have placed a total of £166,5 on the match. No mather the outcome u will win £163,2. A 98% return on investment.

      Yet they are making money. Why? Because their odds is so accurate.

      If you disagree with a price you can back or back against the outcome, but you are destined to not win in the long run.

      Of course this changes a bit if you have inside information. If you are the only person in the world who knows Jose will take off Eden at half time then you are right not to captain him.

      If not, go with the odds and the highest expected scoring player as a captain and you will gain the most points in the long run.

      The long run can be crucial, though. There could possibly be a player who makes the best decisions long term but hasn`t been in the top 1000 during the last 5 seasons.

      1. Ruth_NZ
        • 9 Years
        8 years, 8 months ago

        I'm not going to be drawn into long arguments so this will be my only other comment.

        Bookmakers' odds reflect the mechanics of gambling. They are not the same as the mechanics of FPL. 😕

        1. rattan64
          • 9 Years
          8 years, 8 months ago

          Not looking for an argument either as you say!

          Yes odds are not the mechanics of FPL, but they are the best indicator of the subjective probability the population places on events happening. Thus they are particularly relevant in fantasy, as one compare's their own implicit subjective probability to that of the bookies 'average' in order to gain a sense of value, differentials etc...

    • dinomyte
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      I love the comparison as we are all strategists. Cards are a great likening to the game of fantasy football... although I like to look at my team as a hand in a different game of cards than just hold 'em. One where you are playing a dealer that may have similar cards. I try and add up my teams possible clean sheets for that gameweek against the total possible clean sheets for the weekend. A game where my point scorers are waged against weaker cards (or teams) in order to pick up tricks. Sometimes the weaker cards in a suit are trump for a round but most of the time an ace in any suit (or team) will pick up the trick no matter what the trump is.

    • Bmanne
      • 11 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      Really enjoyed this! Had a very bad gameweek from a solid squad. Won't kneejerk though 🙂

    • Tiggsy
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 9 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      Great article.

      I'd maybe ignore the pocket aces reference as, as many others have stated, it's hard to know quite which players that represents. I'd maybe go with connectors/suited cards as the analogy with previously high scoring players (Aguero, Hazard etc) representing a hand like AKs which, whilst rightly considered an excellent starting hand is still beaten by any pair. Essentially, picking Hazard is hedging your bets that the nut-nothing beats lower cards.

      Which it will.

      Mostly.

    • Jay Jay Okocha
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      As a former professional Omaha player, this is lol basic stuff but it needed to be said. I can't believe some people are already wildcarding / taking hits.

      1. Jay Jay Okocha
        • 10 Years
        8 years, 8 months ago

        Also, as a math PhD, I think a basic explanation of variance with some simulations would help calm the hysteria a little bit.

        1. sylvanshine
          • 8 Years
          8 years, 8 months ago

          It is a highly emotional game, and that's the result. You can not talk them out of it . 🙂

        2. sboj
          • 9 Years
          8 years, 8 months ago

          Jay Jay, I would like to ask, I'm taking a hit to take out Hazard for Eriksen and Wallcott for Payet. The reason for it is that both have great schedules coming up and I would need to take a hit at later point to get Aguero in anyway, plus I need to get rid of benched Wallcott. Do you not think rotations suffice an early hit? (Im planning on keeping Payet and Eriksen for next 10plus weeks as their schedules are great)

        3. Forza Napoli
          • Fantasy Football Scout Member
          • 14 Years
          8 years, 8 months ago

          I never knew Jay Jay Okocha had a PhD in maths.

    • rattan64
      • 9 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      Fantastic article, from a poker player and trained Economist/Statistician. I try to think along the same lines as a general rule. Well-articulated too, I'd imagine a lot of people ignore these concepts.

      The general notion of sample size applies in a massive sense to people making kneejerk reactions after GW1 i.e. a SINGLE sample....

    • george jp
      • 8 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      plz need help... should i get:

      A- vardy and hazard
      or
      B- costa and cabaye
      or
      C- benteke and payet

    • tets mcgee (Bachmann an Rob…
      • 8 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      with so many ffs poker players coming out of the woodwork maybe we should have an ffs poker tournament? the big sites will organise 1 for us if we want to do it ( im a pro player by the way) £5 entry? any takers?

      1. tets mcgee (Bachmann an Rob…
        • 8 Years
        8 years, 8 months ago

        i guess there isnt so much interst in an ffs poker tournament as i thought 🙂

      2. Old Man
        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
        • 12 Years
        8 years, 8 months ago

        If you're going to play cards, play one with skill involved:- bridge.

    • rakkhi
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 13 Years
      8 years, 8 months ago

      Well done for submitting an article but did you just want to drop as many cool poker lingo as possible? Didn't really add a lot of substance in my view as in how to apply EV to Fantasy Football. The Hazard example using just his points per season average from last season just seems terrible for calculating his EV. A follow-up article on building an EV model to apply to FF based on your poker knowledge would be interesting.