Leeds v Man Utd: Injured Raphinha misses out as Solskjaer opts for pace

So as I was saying bang average at best and more to the point playing poor football. No evidence of managerial achievement at all.

Unless of course there's a new system in place where you get 6 points for a win. 🙂

It'd be interesting to check the points for Villa without Grealish and Palace without Zaha. I imagine it comes out quite close.Smith has had an extra 200 million to spend mind.

I think “bang average at best” is a bit disingenuous tbf - are they not 5 points off 6th in with a game in hand in that same table?

It’s probably more that a 2021-only league table is too arbitrary to put any reliance upon - it cherry picks the worst part of the season for Villa (even though they are still less than 2 wins off 6th in that table which would be massively over achieving)

And also still don’t think removing Grealish from the Villa equation is even relevant to judge Smith either and based on his achievements he’s surely in the conversation for manager of the year - along with several other guys who have done incredible jobs this season

P.s unlike your comment on Rodrigo my Watkins comment is obvious and deliberate hyperbole, he's decent in the Premier league. My main point was to highlight how good grealish is, performance difference night and day without him. He is one of the best players in the world

Well I'm glad you've admitted Watkins is not a championship striker - that's a good thing

I do believe Rodrigo must be amongst the worst signings of the season though - surely that's fair?

To get 3 goals, 3 assists and 20 appearances from a striker who was the club record singing?

Well I didn't realise anyone would need that clarification but enjoy

I'd say you didn't watch him play, 20 appearance scattered really with a litany of injury problems

Injury making it a bad signing, sure I guess

Making him out to be a bad player? Nope not if you watched, he did the same as most Leeds players, worked hard, created chances, played cam not strike mostly too

Luckily he wasn’t described as one of the worst players - he was described as being one of the worst signings 😉

Well in this context managerial achievement and ability, describing him as that seemed to be a slight against the manager which is strange but you do you

And then you very clearly, only literally a few comments above were definitely remarking on rodrigos ability too so bit disingenuous to pretend you solely meant, injured player = bad signing and no other context

FYI in the league minutes wise he's basically played 12 full games, 3 goals and 3 assists while recovering from injuries and in a new league is somehow one of the worst- hyperbole? Or just lack of knowledge, twist it with 20 apps and it sounds worse doesn't it, 25 mins here and there coming back from injury is what lots were

So 3 goals and 3 assists in 12 games at CAM, a goal contribution every other game. Worst signing?

You won’t find me “definitely remarking on Rodrigo’s ugh - because I didn’t - feel free to quote & prove me wrong though (Another poster in this thread described him as a stinker, but that wasn’t me)

What I referred to him as was “one of the worst signings of the season” - which he surely must be considering he broke the clubs transfer record and hasn’t delivered anywhere near what Leeds would have wanted for that outlay

Will he sort out his fitness and bed in & deliver next season? Maybe, maybe not....

Has he been one of the worst signings of this season? Yep

"I do believe Rodrigo must be amongst the worst signings of the season though - surely that's fair?

To get 3 goals, 3 assists and 20 appearances from a striker who was the club record singing?"

That's not about performance level in a 20 game sample? Lol no point debating with you if you're just gonna be this disingenuous

A 20 game sample that works out to 12 games minutes wise 😉

A return every other game playing as CAM while having recurring injuries is one of the worst signings, talk about hyperbole ey

But Rodrigo surely has been amongst the worst signings of the season though

He has made 20 appearances - 12-games worth of minutes or whatever way you want to describe it

And he has 3 goals and 3 assists

When Leeds were drawing up their plans for their club record signing - that type of return is far below what they’d have expected - way below

It’s a dramatic under achievement from what must rank as one of the worst signings of the season...

Never denied that Leeds would have expected more, but that's based on the injury and lack of playing time not performance, which yes, you have dragged into it and pretended you didn't and tied yourself up in knots

If you think 30 million for a promoted team that gets them a player that gets a goal return every other game is something to be sniffed at then you have very high expectations

But I’m not tied up in knots... I said "I do believe Rodrigo must be amongst the worst signings of the season though - surely that's fair?

To get 3 goals, 3 assists and 20 appearances from a striker who was the club record singing?"

You said I remarked on rodrigo’s ability and still have’s shown where - because his ability is not referenced (you are projecting & assuming, but still haven’t shown where his ability was referenced other than the other poster above referring to him as a “stinker” - which still only may be referring to the signing rather than the ability of the player)

It’s entirely fair to say Rodrigo has been one of the worst signings of the season imo - that level of underperformance alone puts him firmly in that particular conversation

I'm sorry but you are absolutely having a laugh if you think referencing "3 goals and 3 assists in 20 appearances" isn't supposed to be a comment about his ability? What is it a comment about then? I'll give you an upvote if you can answer that one question in a reply witnout doing your usual sidestep of waffling about something else

Your defense is very childish, you're basically saying you didn't comment on his ability because you literally did not say the words "I do not rate his ability" which again is disingenuous

It’s a comment about his *output* - which hasn’t been good enough (not his *ability*, which wasn’t referenced)

Whether he’s a player with great *ability*who has overperformed, or a player with poor *ability* who has underperformed isn’t part of the comment - both of those scenarios could result in 3 goals and 3 assists

Hence he’s been an extremely poor investment of 30 million and one of the worst signings of the season as a result

*Under/over performed vice-versa obvs

Okay, so how come a return every other game isn't good enough? For a promoted team I'd say that was good? What level of output and return would make him good, or at least not one of the worst signings of the season

Because we've established 6 returns in 12 games= one of the worst signings somehow

Well no... we haven’t established that he has 6 returns in 12 games - we’ve established he’s made 10 starts and 10 sub appearances 20 appearances, (less than one return every 3 appearances)

To break the club record transfer fee, Leeds would have wanted a player who played much more than he played and who delivered much more than he delivered

Has to be in the conversation for worst signings of the season imo

I'll break it down for you, his total mins played in the league divided by 90 (a game) = 12.03 games

6 returns in that time on the pitch isn't worst signings of the season level or anywhere near, if your only argument was that if you spend 30m on a player you'd want them to play more then obviously I agree but that isn't your only argument when you bring output up

You might wanna check out how awful greenwood has been if minutes don't matter and only appearances do, worst player of the season level by your metrics 😉

Let's face it, appearances over minutes would only ever be used when you're losing the argument

Not even factoring in a lot of those minutes were returns from injury too, at worst that's decent to good returns

Yes - Greenwood is 19 and didn’t cost any money so probably won’t be in the conversation for worst signing of the season imo

Rodrigo is 30 years old and cost 30m and is definitely in the conversation for worst signing of the season imo

I said worst player of the season for greenwood actually if you care to reread imo imo imo

You've committed to a terrible opinion based on not much, maybe you saw him play bad once or twice off the bench and now refuse to change your mind

Like how you ignored everything before the greenwood comment, easy out wasn't it 😉

Imo

Yes you said Worst player (which was again veering off topic) and I said worst signing - to bring it back to the original point

No one has said Rodrigo is the worst player in the league - but he is in the conversation for worst signing of the season

Leeds have a 30 year old club record transfer, signed for 30m who has only made 20 appearances (10 starts subbed off, and 10 sub appearances) and has scored 3 goals/3 assists in that time - that’s the very definition of one of the worst signings of the season

That seems to suggest if Rodrigo wasn't a new signing then that same output suddenly is measured differently

It is, if you ignore that 20 appearances = 12 games in reality, a return every other game for a promoted team in a new league is hardly worst signings of the season territory talk about hyperbole

Worst signing based on expectations to be fit and play most games and contribute more? Sure, but then leave output out of it, and don't try to pretend that a return every other game is somehow bad

If Rodrigo wasn’t a new signing then he automatically wouldn’t be in the conversation for worst signing of the season

If a player made 9 x 10 minute sub appearances, and scored one goal - we don’t say he’s scored a goal per game - because he hasn’t scored a goal per game

Same as Rodrigo hasn’t played 12 games - he has made 10 starts and 10 sub appearances... during which time he has delivered 3 goals and 3 assists... whilst costing 30m and breaking Leeds transfer record

Definitely in the conversation for worst signing of the season

Ignoring my point, why does level of output get judged differently whether its a new signing or not? No need to respond with "because then it doesn't qualify for worst signing of the season"

His output isn't good enough for you, greenwood's must be way worse then right? If anything you'd factor the being a new signing as more of a hindrance than already being in the league

No we don't say that, but anyone who'd call that guy a worst of the season because hes only scored 1 would definitely be met with responses of he's literally come off the bench for 10 mins 9 times instead of pretending he'd played 9 times

You still seem to somehow be equating "worst signing of the season" with "worst player in the league" or "is a shockingly terrible player"...

If Rodrigo had been a free transfer, or maybe cost 5m-ish, or if he was still a teenager then you'd say fair enough, it didn't work out, no harm no foul

But to spend 30m on a club record, marquee singing, and have them deliver what Rodrigo's delivered?

Has to be amongst the worst signings of the season surely

Literally not what I'm doing but okay

Thank you, you've finally admitted it, that wasnt hard now was it. It's a bad signing because it didn't work out, meaning injuries. Output alone is a goal contribution every other game, not bad at all. But to you it doesn't matter because its so few appearances and a lack of impact for 30m

That's all you had to say from the start, no need to pretend the output alone was not good enough, output in terms of expectations of a signing who happened to get injured lots is a fairer way to describe it

You’ve unfortunately become fixated on the 3 goals/3 assists - which was but a single factor alongside his transfer fee, the games he’s played/missed, his fitness, his age etc etc

(All of which combine to make him one of the worst signings of the season)

You got there in the end, and it took a while but I’m glad you now agree Rodrigo has been one of the worst signings of the season - wasn’t that difficult was it 😉

Took a while because you tried to pretend 3 goals and 3 assists in 12 games is somehow bad 🙂 at least now you admit all those other factors

More in helping you grasp the differences between “worst signing” and “bad player” and “20 appearances” vs. “12 games” amongst other things 😉

But you got there in the end and agree Rodrigo was one of the worst signings of the season, which is the important thing 🙂

That's undeniable, but I'd also wager if villa's main cbs were out most of the season they'd be struggling bad

You're including spend as the reason why the achievement isn't as impressive, but not factoring in other teams are either established in the league already(West ham, leciester) and had spent money last year, the kind Leeds couldn't spend, and the type of players Leeds couldn't attract in the championship

Please justify how Smith is possibly in the conversation for the manager of the season? He's the manager of a team around midtable which has spent more than nearly every other club in that region and the moment they lose their talisman their play becomes average to poor.

Calendar year table shows Villa behind Palace - a team that has spent under 50 million in the last 3 seasons.

Grealish as one of the players of the season perhaps - I haven't seen anything from Smith at all.

Bielsa easily for me, doesn't mean I disparage or don't rate the others achievements

Easily is a bit hyperbolic, but he's definitely done an incredibly good job and will be in the conversation for manager of the year along with several other guys who have done incredible jobs this year