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The Best Value Players in FPL

This article aims to establish who the best value players in the Fantasy Premier League (FPL) over the coming season are likely to be. The numbers in this article are not meant to be treated as absolute and it utilises statistics from Fantasy Football Scout’s members area and also includes a few assumptions about how 2015/16 may pan out.

Before you go through this article, a bit of background reading may be handy, including two of my posts looking at points per game (PPG). The first makes the case for a Strong Defense while the second compares a “template” team with a 5-4-1 formation side. In addition, Patch posted an interesting article called The Case For Defence, while TM245 posted a great series about Value Over Replacement Player (VORP), looking at midfielders and forwards.

Method

My research is based on the same fundamentals as the articles about VORP, which looks at which players give the best bang for your buck. You can find a lot of content on this for other sports by searching for “value-based drafting”

My research also looks to create base data about each player, which I have gathered from the projections part of FFScout’s members area. I feel this gives a good idea about how players are likely to perform this season.

Another point to mention is that I have avoided total points and points per minute as measurements as these do not take into account injuries, games missed and players who are likely to be substituted. Injury-prone players who can’t last 90 minutes are not ones we want in our squads.

By focusing on games played and Fantasy Football Scout’s projections, I have sought to create a rough PPG (points per game) for all players and then look to compare that with baseline values for each position. To calculate these baselines I took the highest PPG player available in the cheapest price segment as detailed here:

Goalkeepers: Butland – STO – 4.5 – 3.49 PPG.
Defenders: Morgan – LEI – 4.5 – 2.71 PPG.
Midfielders: King – LEI – 4.5 – 2.76 PPG.
Forwards: Defoe – SUN – 5 – 3.63 PPG.

Using all this data I have sought to come up with a run down of the best value players for each position. If you would like more information about these calculations and the numbers involved, please leave a comment below and I’ll be happy to explain. In short, though, the higher the figure, the better value they offer.

Results

Goalkeepers

Stekelenburg – 4.41
Mignolet – 3.62
Courtois – 2.79
Hart – 2.75
de Gea – 2.67
Cech – 2.53
Lloris – 2.29

Defenders

Bertrand – 10.45
Clyne – 9.91
Rose – 9.55
Skrtel – 9.2
Jones – 8.88
Darmian – 8.8
Bellerin – 8.78
Alderweireld – 8.68
Cedric – 8.51
Azpilicueta – 8.45
Mertesacker – 8.29
Zabaleta – 7.87
Fonte – 7.29
Jagielka – 7.22
Koscielny – 6.91
Monreal – 6.87
Ivanovic – 6.8
Terry – 6.7
Demichelis – 6.51
Smalling – 6.2
Baines – 6.09

Midfielders

Jedinak – 13.76
Dorrans – 9.14
Blind – 8.69
Brunt – 7.62
Howson – 7.53
Young – 7.21
Ramires – 7.04
Ki Sung-yueng – 6.34
Johnson – 6.12
Henderson – 5.98
Adam – 5.71
Milner – 5.33
Routledge – 5.29
Herrera – 5.22
Walcott – 5.2
Mahrez – 5.03
Sterling – 4.97
Di Maria – 4.87
Depay – 4.87
Chadli – 4.85
Hoolahan – 4.82
Mane – 4.72
Sigurdsson – 4.72
Hazard – 4.71
Silva – 4.48
Schweinsteiger – 4.44
Eriksen – 4.39
Cazorla – 4.32
Ritchie – 4.22
Mata – 4.17
Sanchez – 4.16
Walters – 4.13
Deulofeu – 4.11
McCarthy – 3.97
Fellaini – 3.93
Fabregas – 3.85
Shelvey – 3.65
Redmond – 3.61
Bolasie – 3.6
Clasie – 3.52
Ozil – 3.52
Firmino – 3.51
Yaya Toure – 3.43
Oscar – 3.42
Puncheon – 3.36

Forwards

Cisse – 4.28
Kane – 3.61
Aguero – 3.33
Costa – 3.17
Murray – 2.98
Rooney – 2.94
Rodriguez – 2.75
Sturridge – 2.5
Carroll – 1.8
Giroud – 1.57
Benteke – 1.32
Sakho – 1.18
Lukaku – 1
Pelle – 0.89
Berahino – 0.51
Vardy – 0.08

Conclusions

Looking at the data, one can easily see that the most value is brought out of defenders and midfielders. Defenders, especially, offer great value, particularly mid-price options such as Tottenham’s Danny Rose and Liverpool’s Nathaniel Clyne. In midfield, a lot of cheap players such Swansea’s Ki Sung-yueng offer great value. Liverpool’s Jordan Henderson and James Milner also do well. However, when it comes to goalkeepers and forwards, value becomes much harder to find.

A key lesson to learn from this is to ensure you get the best value from your squad and spend your initial 100.0 budget wisely.  At the moment, this would tend to favour a 4-5-1 formation but do keep in mind that you still would want a few big hitters for captaincy options.

If anyone has any better data I could take a look at, I’d be happy to see what conclusions we can draw from it. It would also be great to have an informed discussion about this – and how we can utilize it to maximise our Fantasy returns.

149 Comments Post a Comment
  1. J0E
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • Has Moderation Rights
    • 14 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    Great list. Henderson and Milner could offer great value at their prices with assurity of starts.

    This article is also making me consider investing more in defence.

    1. Clueless24
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 8 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Anyone know why Moreno's season projection is so bad yet Clyne and other Liverpool defenders have a decent projection? Surely he'll start every game... Also whats peoples opinions on Bellerin starting for Arsenal?

    2. PDM TOP 1,000 any Season Le…
      • 14 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Looks like defence is now a potential sturdy platform to build your squad around ...

  2. Doosra - ☭DeclanMyGenius…
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 14 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    I am afraid that those figures for the goal keepers put me off the whole concept.

    Something wrong here, imo. 🙁

    1. Woy of the Wovers
      • 13 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Gk figures don't look too wrong. But the defender and midfield numbers look too high so I suspect some bug in the calculations.

      1. Woy of the Wovers
        • 13 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        Actually, I think I understand what's been done here. The figures are not PPG but are the relative PPG per marginal £m spent.

        Patch's analysis goes a bit further than this since he updates his base PPG to newer, "better value" players at each step. The only difference being the underlying stats used to estimate the expected scores.

        1. Doosra - ☭DeclanMyGenius…
          • Fantasy Football Scout Member
          • 14 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          OK. Well done, WotW.

          I'm afraid I don't really approve of PPG - not in a "green" form, anyway.

        2. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
          • 10 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          You got it! It's basically gained value per EXTRA $ spent.

          So, it's only considering players than are worth more than 4.5m for defenders as an example.

          If I am spending 7m on Ivanovic, what extra am I for the 2.5m I'm spending more than on a Morgan.

    2. Nabs Kebabs
      • 12 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Couldn't agree more Doos, I couldn't believe it. Time and time again we have seen cheap gk's offer more value.

      1. Doosra - ☭DeclanMyGenius…
        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
        • 14 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        Aye. 🙂

      2. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
        • 10 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        Guys, please understand, this actually supports that. This says that the premium keepers offer very little extra value than the best cheap keeper in Butland.

  3. Mauro Boselli
    • 13 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    urghh Dorrans.

    1. jester112358
      • 9 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      I have a very hard time getting any value of this study and it's difficult to understand the valuation here. Your list is also very different from mine: http://i.imgur.com/kI16tiw.png

      Defenders excel in points/value since they play so many minutes. It's a whole different ballgame if you do (points/minutes) / value. Forwards bring a lot of value, 'cause their points per minute tick a lot harder and you can swap them easily.

      I did my studies because I wanted to know if the heavier defense could be the key. It's clearly not the case.

      1. Toast
        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
        • 13 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        This is interesting! Do you happen to have the graphs split by Position? Bit hard to read the names. Thanks

      2. sindriseagal
        • 8 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        You forgot Walcott, didnt you, he should be on top in points / minutes i think

        good graff though, have much more faith in this than the article.

        1. jester112358
          • 9 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          Walcott didn't play enough minutes to make to the list. Would've won points / minutes by quite a margin. My threshold was around 1000 minutes.

          Don't have any chart splitted by position currently. You can zoom in the chart with ctrl + mouse wheel which gives some separation.

          1. sindriseagal
            • 8 Years
            8 years, 10 months ago

            yeah thanks this is awesome.

      3. Toast
        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
        • 13 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        I guess Rooney is so low based on last years performance?

        1. jester112358
          • 9 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          Low points, high minutes combined with a high price makes him look bad.

      4. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
        • 10 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        Do take a look at the methodology below and see if that clarifies.

        I'm hesitant to use minutes as a metric as it also overvalues players.

        Let's say Ivanovic plays 90 minutes every game while Aguero plays 75. Aguero will have a higher PPM than he should becausae he gets 2 points (for playing + 60 minutes) at every 75 minutes while Ivanovic will only get that for every 90 minutes.

        I want to value players on total games they play - seems far more unbiased to me.

        1. invertebrate
          • Fantasy Football Scout Member
          • 9 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          I agree on that point, especially when comparing defenders and attackers because defenders have to play a certain number of minutes to get a clean sheet (their main source of points) whereas Aguero can come on for a 20 minute cameo at the end and bag a brace. PPM is fine when comparing the same position but not across the board.

  4. J0E
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • Has Moderation Rights
    • 14 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    Our Community article comments tend to focus on the specific issue covered - in this case player value. If you want to discuss your RMT or another issue please head over to the latest article on our home page.

  5. Djmc119
    • 9 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    I did some analysis which created a value figure but it was based on minutes per point x price... I'd post it but I left it on my work pc and am currently on holiday. Take a players total minutes played last year then divide it by points scored, then x that by the players 15/16 price and this gives you a figure you can call 'value'. The lower the figure the better the value. Needless to say Walcott had the best figure but you have to be subjective in a sense to see which players will replicate that form and of course hold down a starting berth.

    1. kbiffo
      • 12 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      I see where you are coming from, but I think you also have to be subjective with your analysis on last season too.
      Team change, Managers change, players move, suspensions and form drops are only a few things that may skew your numbers.
      For instance, Newcastle have signed one striker already (Mitrovic) and are looking at another (Austin). I very much doubt that Cisse will get another ban as long as he get last season, but by all accounts if he is still there, he may actually play less minutes than he did last season.
      Last season he played 1158 mins and got 97 points which is only 16 less than 12/13 season when he played 2999 mins.
      His points per minute last season is better than Harry Kane's, so if you looked at your model you'd think he was a stick on mid range striker ............. But like I said, he probably won't play at all, at least not as a starter.

    2. Toast
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 13 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Would it be possible to list all the top players? You lost Clyne but then Moreno is cheaper so won't he be on there somewhere? Also have Butland at the top but not in the list? Thanks

  6. Djmc119
    • 9 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    Would you mind explaining the workings out to get the figures? Sorry i don't quite understand how you've reached these figures

    1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Explained below! They got edited out in the article 🙂

  7. Sz21
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 12 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    We won't know who is going to be good value until at least 5 weeks into the season. It's all a guessing game until then..

    Is that too pessimistic a view?

    1. Exdeo
      • 9 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      a littlle bit too pessimistic;) It's crazy to build your team having only statistical approach, but also you can't say that it's impossible to predict something. Last year quit a few people predicted that Fabs - Costa duo will work, also saw Siggy in few teams right from the beginning. I am betting on Depay - Rooney at the moment, which, of course can quickly change if they bring in a new massive forward. Also if Arsenal don't start season in the similar way Chelski did last term, then I don't know...

    2. Leeroy357
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 9 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      So I suppose we shouldn't even bother picking a team until GW6 then?

      1. FC Nymph
        • 8 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        Wild card game week 6!..... Unless your high end players are paying their way and your differentials are a success please don't bang a team together based upon last seasons stats! Try and pick a team based on the first 6 fixture with a little punt on budget players be the scout and the manager....

    3. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Correct. But the FPL Projections are based on past seasons. It may not be able to tell you who the best value PLAYER is, but it can definitely guide you as to what type of players do well.

      According to my conclusions, I'd rather be putting money in defenders and mids.

  8. BIG TONES
    • 9 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    Ivan worth the extra 1m over Azpi?

    I mean he always starts off so strong, don't want to miss out this time!

    1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      According to me, Azpi offers better value. You may want to factor in the risk of Azpi not playing a few games though - that isn't touched upon here.

      That said, there's a case to looking at having both of them.

  9. FC Nymph
    • 8 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    These calculation will be of better of used at Christmas... I m looking for 'stat making' players not last seasons best values past over present only dludes what managers should be looking for in the season ahead.

    1. kbiffo
      • 12 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Agreed and well said too!

    2. jester112358
      • 9 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Nothing wrong with using a big sample size to trying to get an idea if the player is performing in a level and his price would indicate. Football is not stock marker and I believe past is a great indication of the future as well.

      Sure if you do your calculations on Christmas you can include everyone. Downside is that played minutes are going to be much lower which creates a lot bigger variance that you'd wan't to see. If we'd use (last years) statistics from Christmas onward, every team would have Pelle, Fabregas, Siggy who all overachieved in the first stint.

  10. Patch
    • 12 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    Can you clarify how you calculated PPG for each player? You mention the FFS members projections, but also games played. Do you mean games played last season?

    1. OShaughnessy
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 11 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      This was a strange one for me too?

      The FFS season-long projections are based off total mins played.
      So, I don't know what the difference between Points per Min or Points per Game (90mins) is?

      1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
        • 10 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        Feel like it can skew the stats for a players who play lesser minutes. A player who plays 70 min per game will have a higher p90 value than he should. In reality, he would have played more games than p90 would assume.

    2. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Do check below!

      Used Average Minutes / Game for last season with Projected Minutes for next season.

      That was the best way I could do it - since I didn't have any FFS Projected Games Played for next season. Make sense?

      1. OShaughnessy
        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
        • 11 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        Still don't get it though?

        It's all the same number / result in the end.
        The pts to min ratio remains the same no matter what number we choose to divide by...

        Example:
        100pts in 100mins = 1pt per min
        If I ask you what our player's pts per 50mins is, we'd say 50pts.
        If I ask what's our player's pts per 25min we still get 25pts.
        And, so on...

        I'll agree that working in 90min blocks makes sense for dealing with football players because that's the length of a game but, outside that the number we choose won't alter the outcome.

        1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
          • 10 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          Let me try and explain with a hypothetical example!

          Two players, A and B. Both have played 900 minutes and earned 90 points.

          Difference being: A plays 90 minutes each game and B plays 45 minutes each game.

          In a regular p90 minute block, they both come out to 9 points per block.

          However, what I do is:

          A plays 90 minutes a game. For 900 minutes, that means he plays 10 games. So he averages 9 points per game.

          B plays 45 minutes a game. For 900 minutes, that means he plays 20 games. So he averages 4.5 points per game.

          Does that clarify it?

          1. OShaughnessy
            • Fantasy Football Scout Member
            • 11 Years
            8 years, 10 months ago

            But, we're making a *massive* assumption here!

            We cannot assume from the FFS projections how many appearances a player will make?

            We can't take 2 player's blocks of time & arbitrarily divide one by 90mins & the other by 45mins & then claim we *know* each of their Points per Game?

            Why?
            We'll use your example:

            - Player A is a sub & played 900mins over the course of an entire season making 38 appearances.

            - Player B was a starter who played 10 full games but, then missed the whole rest of the year due to injury.

            Now, tell us who had a higher Points per Game?

            I mean they each still got us 90pts but, Player A's was far less *per game*, right?

            1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
              • 10 Years
              8 years, 10 months ago

              But you're saying the same thing as me!

              You've just reversed who the starter and sub was!

              Using the example you quoted:

              A was a bit part sub who played 900 minutes over 38 games. Based on last season, that puts his AVERAGE minutes per game to around 23. So, if he is projected to play 450 minutes next season - I will be dividing 450/23 - essentially saying that these 450 minutes will be played over 19 games. Hence, his PPG will be Total Projected Points / 19.

              However, for the second guy, who is a guy who played a full game 10 times. His average minutes per game last season would be 90.

              So a predicted amount of 450 minutes (in all likelhood, his would be far far higher) would be divided by 90, hence saying that for his 450 minutes, he would only play 5 games. So his PPG would be Total Projected Points / 5.

              So my calculations would do the same thing you said. Give Player A a far lower PPG.

              1. OShaughnessy
                • Fantasy Football Scout Member
                • 11 Years
                8 years, 10 months ago

                I know I did... & that's the whole point.
                Don't you see now?

                If the example can be reversed, how can either of us claim to know how many Points per Game Player A or Player B got?

                As a result, any calculations you've done based around *diving by 80mins* won't hold water.

                If the FFS projections listed Games Played, fine we're good.
                But, we can't take blocks of mins & just assign a # of *80min Games* some one will play this year.

                1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
                  • 10 Years
                  8 years, 10 months ago

                  Yes and No.

                  I've only assigned that value for new players in the league - for who I mentioned the data may not be good.

                  However, for people who played last season, I used their last season's value! Last Seasons Total Minutes / Last Seasons Total Games.

                  Obviously, this may change in certain cases (let's say for aging plays who start playing lesser). But on an overall picture, it should stay roughly in line.

                  Especially considering the fact that what I wanted out of this data is an IDEA on the value of positions, not players.

                  Defenders look to be far more value for money according to this and while the personnel may change, that statement should still hold true.

                  1. OShaughnessy
                    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
                    • 11 Years
                    8 years, 10 months ago

                    Yes & yes...

                    We cannot use last season's values / total games & then blanket apply them to this year's projections.

                    Player's positions, teammates, manager's style, & season schedules are all too fluid for that.
                    (Sterling, Walcott, & Rooney, to name just a few.

                    Additionally, think about how most Lei player's started the year & how they ended it? Their PPG is almost meaningless now but, over the final quarter of last year, look out.

                    I really appreciate that you did a lot of work here I truly do.
                    And, for a dead team challenge this would help a lot.

                    However, we don't pick FPL players for a year-long stay.
                    FT's, Pt Hits, WC's, & rotating Captain's choices all make this tough to apply in any practical sense.

                    1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
                      • 10 Years
                      8 years, 10 months ago

                      I do agree with you there! It seems like you're missing some stuff though!

                      - I used projections for next year, not last years stats. So Leicester's form and the change of roles for Rooney etc should already be factored in.

                      - I am simply saying that when players play, they would play roughly the same amount per game as they last season. Like an Ivanovic would continue to play full games while a Fellaini would alternate starts and a sub appearances often.

                      This data obviously won't be perfect, but by in large, it would be fairly consistent. When I then add to this the fact that I am not looking to pick players based on this. But rather, just to see what trends there are positionally, I think it still holds some water.

                      Do appreciate all your questions / feedback btw, Thanks!

                      1. OShaughnessy
                        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
                        • 11 Years
                        8 years, 10 months ago

                        > However, for people who played last season, I used their last season's value! Last Seasons Total Minutes / Last Seasons Total Games.

                        > - I used projections for next year, not last years stats. So Leicester's form and the change of roles for Rooney etc should already be factored in.

  11. Giggs_11
    • 8 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    My head is gonna explode first team i managed to complete. im still a liitel sceptical depay/mata
    ozil/ramsey

    Speroni Vorm

    Frencis ward cissoko kaboul yoshida

    Hazard ozil depay ritchie bentaleb

    Rooney costa sakho

  12. Giggs_11
    • 8 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    Dumped Ritchie for Payet

  13. RMT's Professor
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 13 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    I either don't understand these numbers or there's a mistake somewhere.

    For example, Jedinak is projected 8.2 points less than King over the season and is 0.5m more. So how does he get such a high VORP ranking. Surely it should be negative?

    Likewise, Dorrans is projected less points than King over the season?

    1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Jedinak was projected to play only 2129 minutes. Based on the fact that he played around 85 minutes a game last season, that came to about 25 games.

      King was projected to play 2688 minutes. That comes to around 34 games at roughly 80 minutes per game.

      So Jedinak's PPG comes out higher than King's for the season - which is what I'm looking at.

      Does that help?

      1. RMT's Professor
        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
        • 13 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        Many thanks for the reply- I think I understand your methodology now and like what you've done but I still have a couple of queries about the results.

        I'm not sure I agree with the use of the 80 and 85 minutes idea. It seems quite counterintuitive (and probably wrong!) that Jedinak would be projected less minutes than King over the season but you give him more minutes per match he plays. Using last year's average can be misleading and is too heavily influenced by injuries e.t.c. i.e. in the case of Jedinak who missed lots of games last year because of injuries (I think!). His projected minutes this year are influenced by the fact that he is presumably less nailed on than last season, so his minutes per match will not be as high in RMT so using the RMT projections and 85 minutes per match is incorrect! Mainly because if he is a less than nailed on starter, if he only comes on as a sub and only gets 10 minutes he gets 1 point, which is actually 9 points per 90! This is correctly taken into account in RMT and because a player with less minutes will not be projected more minutes per match, Jedinak is given too big an advantage over King in your analysis. One solution would be to simply take Jedinak's projected minutes and divide by 38, instead of using last year's averages.

        You might be interested to know that RMT actually does work out expected points given the player takes part in the match (basically what you have tried to work out but with the VORP idea) but these numbers are not given on the players page or Build My Team/Rate My Team page, instead the slightly more intuitive expected points per match (including the chance they don't take part at all) is displayed. However, they are taken into account when working out weekly totals, which is useful for working out who to captain, who to bench and how much your bench is likely to contribute.

        So you are right to look at points per game given they participate in the match but looking solely at this can be misleading. For example, if my team is made up of 11 players who give me 5 points per game if they play but only a 10% chance of playing, I've got an extremely weak team! Even if I only have one player who has a great points per match played but only has a 50% chance of taking part, then 50% of the time I won't get his awesome points per match, instead getting a bench players points per match.

        This is why the cheapest players offer such good value and as you've discovered great value per match participated in. Because they are often the players on your bench, whom you should actually be interested in average points per match (inlcuding matches they don't play) because if they don't play, there's a good chance you won't have a replacement and end up with 0 points!

        Keep up the good work Mesut!

        1. RMT's Professor
          • Fantasy Football Scout Member
          • 13 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          Oops- ignore my comment, "One solution would be to simply take Jedinak's projected minutes and divide by 38, instead of using last year's averages." I realise that does absolutely nothing.

          However, I suppose what I was trying to suggest is by position, minutes to appearances (including sub appearances) should be roughly such that if A and B are both midfielders and A is projected more minutes than B, then A should be expected to make more appearances than B.

          If you knew the inner-working of RMT (specifically the playing probabilities per match) it would be possible to work out expected number of matches per season! Maybe we'll add this at some point in the future!

          1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
            • 10 Years
            8 years, 10 months ago

            Cheers!

            Yup, I see the issues with all that myself. I'm not claiming this is 100% accurate and neither am I claiming that you should pick players based on this.

            What I do see however, is trends one can look at. For example, instead of saying "Jedinak and Henderrson give me good value", I could easily make a statement saying "There's good value in budget to mid value midfielders".

            As above, here are the few clear conclusion I've taken from all this so far:

            - Premium defenders (5.5m+) are worth every penny. Go get them.
            - Midfield has a lot of value in it.
            - Don't go overboard on the goalkeeper.
            - I'd rather have a premium midfielder than a premium striker (Hazard over Costa etc).

            Also, yeah, if I could get more data from the projections, I would be able to do a far better job it!

  14. Clueless24
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 8 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    Anyone know why Moreno's season projection is so bad yet Clyne and other Liverpool defenders have a decent projection? Surely he'll start every game... Also whats peoples opinions on Bellerin starting for Arsenal?
    Flagjust now#REPLY

  15. thes7s
    • 10 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    I ran some data based on last season points per season and players value this season and the results are totally different than those results.

    1. OShaughnessy
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 11 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      > I ran some data based on last season points per season and players value this season and the results are totally different than those results.

      @Thes7s, that's not surprising is it?

      OP mentions twice in the piece that he used FFS Member's area projections & not last season's point totals.

      > My research also looks to create base data about each player, which I have gathered from the projections part of FFScout’s members area

      > By focusing on games played and Fantasy Football Scout’s projections, I have sought to create a rough PPG

      1. thes7s
        • 10 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        I understand however you normally expect players to at least maintain their same points per appearance or points per start at least. That's what I meant, statistics based on future form/assists/goals/projection is quite obsolete, lots of variables are into it. You buy Hazard cause you are expecting Hazard to score more than last year, provided that he failed to deliver same amount of points as per last season, his points per value would be pretty high and you'd be better with another alternative.

        1. OShaughnessy
          • Fantasy Football Scout Member
          • 11 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          > I understand however you normally expect players to at least maintain their same points per appearance or points per start at least

          Not at all.
          Player's positions, teammates, manager's style, & season schedules are all too fluid for that.

          > That's what I meant, statistics based on future form/assists/goals/projection is quite obsolete, lots of variables are into it.

          Yes, there are *lots of variables* but, projections are what every financial model is based on.

          Projections aren't *obsolete*, but looking blindly at past results & thinking that they'll repeat themselves is though.

          Let's just focus on that for now & leave your thoughts on Hazard alone for the moment.

        2. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
          • 10 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          Does the *10 help?

          That got edited out in the article. I did that just so that things are easier to read (most people would prefer reading 8.1 and 3.5 than 0.81 and 0,35).

  16. OShaughnessy
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 11 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    @Why Always Mesut
    Clarify something for me, please?

    You first say,
    > Another point to mention is that I have avoided... points per minute
    Then you follow that up with,
    > I have sought to create a rough PPG (points per game) for all players

    So, instead of Points Per Min you've done Points Per 90mins (aka. per Game)?

    1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      As explained below, I used last season's minute averages for most players.

      For players where it wasn't available - I used a rough estimate of 80. Not the best way to do it but it atleast gives us a *very very very broad* idea.

      It's not the best way to do it, but it's better than a blind PPM or P90 IMO.

      Would be happy for better ideas!

      1. OShaughnessy
        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
        • 11 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        > - I used a rough estimate of 80. Not the best way to do it but it atleast gives us a *very very very broad* idea.

        See above but, ratio of pts per min is a ratio of pts per min, no matter what length of time we choose.

        Granted, it makes no sense to use something like ' pts per 37mins' because that doesn't relate to football in any way.

        But, pts per 80mins is really going to get us the same ratio as pts per 90mins or pts per 1min.

        1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
          • 10 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          Do look above, let's discuss there! I've tried to explain with an example.

          Basic idea is: 900 minutes for player A and B do not mean they played the same number of games.

          For me, a player who subs off at 75 minutes each game should be measured at p75 while a player who plays a full 90 should be measured at p90.

          Simple way to see it:

          X played 2 full games. That's 180 minutes. Did nothing and just got 2 points for playing and playing 60+ minutes each time. He got 2 PPG, played 180 min and got a total of 4 points.

          Y came on for 30 min 6 times. That's 180 minutes. Did nothing got 1 point for each game he played. He got 1 PPG, played 180 min and got a total of 6 points.

          If I did a simple per 90 measurement, Y would be at 3 PPG instead of the 1 (which he really was).

          1. OShaughnessy
            • Fantasy Football Scout Member
            • 11 Years
            8 years, 10 months ago

            Gotcha, see above sir.

  17. tm245
    • 12 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    Thanks for the list. Like the others, I'm not quite sure what metric is being used to calculate value here, but regardless of specific numbers or metrics, I would take away a slightly different conclusion on our attempts to measure or determine value.

    The abundance of defenders and midfielders that top this value list might not indicate that we should load up on this positions; since there seem so many from which to choose, it might indicate we can go cheaper and lighter in these areas so we can overspend on the premiums to get their greater, if not as statistically profitable, returns.

    1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      You're right - to a degree.

      Initially, I built a sample squad out of the high value players. However, what that also does is it leaves a lot of money in the bank.

      Would you rather spend $1 extra on Brunt getting a value of 0.76 per dollar and $8 extra on Aguero getting a value of 0.33

      Or would you do $7 on Hazard with a value of 0.47 per dollar and $1 on Sakho for a value of 0.11 per dollar.

      It's about maximising value gained AND spending all the available cash.

      Hope that clears up the concept!

  18. J0E
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • Has Moderation Rights
    • 14 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    I did edit out a bit of this which did have more detail about methodology but have emailed Why Always Mesut to see if he can pop in and give some more clarity around the figures. I'm sure he'll do that soon and we'll have a clearer picture about what these figures mean.

    1. Paulie Walnuts
      • 8 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      superb, cant wait.

    2. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Replied down below!

  19. vassiriki
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 9 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    alright guys im still having headaches over the "best" possible team. any kind of help
    is appreciated

    schmeichel-myhill
    mert-yoshi-richards-oshea-targett
    hazard-cazorla-mane-chadli-fletcher
    rooney-costa-sakho

    imho a very tough question:

    a) mert-cazorla-mane
    b) azpili-walcott-henderson

    1. Paulie Walnuts
      • 8 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      A for me.... good team

  20. Diva
    • 9 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    I'd be interested to hear how projections are made for players new to the Premier League. Thanks.

  21. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
    • 10 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    Hey guys, a fair bit of the methodology was cut out. I'll be getting home in a couple of hours and writing it out then.

  22. the Penman
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 12 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    The end comment about finding more value in a 4-5-1 for your initial £100m is anninterestingnone. Does that take into account the relative upper and lower bounds for those positions in terms of pricing? That is, how defenders start from 4.0 and max out at 7.0 this year, miss range from 4.5 to 11.5 (but cluster around 6.5-8.5), and forwards have to start at 5.0?

    1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Yup, that's a factor. Also, the average points a 5.0 forward is giving you is higher than the average points a 4.5 defender is giving you. So, you are getting more of a boost with the defender.

      I'm still not sure on the 4-5-1. These numbers hold true on where to invest in the fixed positions that you have to get (1 gk, 3 def, 3 mid, 1 fwd). I still want to figure out what the optimal idea is for the 3 remaining positions (which can be various combinations of def, mid, fwd).

  23. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
    • 10 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    Hey guys, so a few of the important bits about the methodology were cut out during editing.

    Here's the methodology I used:

    My research is based on the same fundamentals as the articles about VORP, which looks at which players give the best bang for your buck. You can find a lot of content on this for other sports by searching for “value-based drafting”.

    For this research, I used the data available in the projections section in the members area. The projections I used were from a couple of weeks back, so there may have been some changes based on new transfers / updated squad news / new projections. Since my aim from this data is to simply understand about what POSITIONS (rather than players) are valuable, that shouldn't affect us greatly.

    Another point to mention is that I have avoided total points and points per minute as measurements as these do not take into account injuries, games missed and players who are likely to be substituted. Injury-prone players who can’t last 90 minutes are not ones we want in our squads (but can have a high PPM ratio).

    I primarily picked up the following three fields from the projections:

    a) Total Projected Points in the season (this includes bonus points according to the FFS projections)
    b) Total Projected Minutes Played
    c) Cost of Player

    Now, to convert these to a Points Per Game metric, I used the average minutes played by a player last season. Dividing Projected Minutes Played / Average Minutes Played last season gave us a rough idea of the number of games a player would be earning the projected points in.

    These allowed me to have a "projected points per game" for the upcoming season for each player. Do note that these values will not be great for new players as well as for players who had differing roles last season (eg. Walcott will play more minutes per game than last season). For some of these players, I took rough estimates of around 80 minutes a game. I put them in simply for perspective - not as an out and out guide.

    Here are a couple of example PPG that came out with this:
    Ivanovic - 4.4 PPG
    Hazard - 6.05 PPG
    Aguero - 6.28 PPG
    Mane - 4.4 PPG

    Now, most importantly, what I want to measure is the added value a player gives you based on their position. That is, I want to compare what Ivanovic would give you on top of what the best possible "cheap" starter in that position gives you. This is what I defined as the "baseline" value for each position (so, basically, what would I earn if I didn't buy Ivanovic and simply picked the best 4.5 defender available). This is done also because it is important to understand that we HAVE to play 3 defenders, 3 midfielders and 1 forward at a minimum.

    To calculate these baselines I took the highest PPG player available in the cheapest price segment as detailed here:

    Goalkeepers: Butland – STO – 4.5 – 3.49 PPG.
    Defenders: Morgan – LEI – 4.5 – 2.71 PPG.
    Midfielders: King – LEI – 4.5 – 2.76 PPG.
    Forwards: Defoe – SUN – 5 – 3.63 PPG.

    From this point, I used a fairly simple formula to define "points gained per $ spent EXTRA" in each position:

    (Player PPG - Baseline PPG) / (Player Cost - Baseline Cost)

    I then multiplied this number by 10 - simply to make it easy to read (that is possibly why other people's numbers were so vastly different). These values would translate to the gain each player gives you if you spend $10 extra dollars on him.

    An example of this calculation - let's use Ivanovic.

    (4.40 - 2.71) * 10 / (7-4.5)
    (1.69) * 10 / 2.5
    = 6.76

    (The values above were calculating on the full PPG and not rounded off numbers so he came to 6.8 in them).

    Does that clarify what I did?

    THINGS TO NOTE:

    My values are based on the FFS Projections. I cannot guarantee their accuracy. I can always calculate them on last years numbers - however, we would find exceptions who would break the data. For example, Kane was 5.0 but performed like a 10.0 striker. I'm sure these exceptions would happen this season as well - you still have to identify and pick overperforming players as always.

    There also wasn't a clear way to factor in rotation. For example, two 3.0 PPG players could hypothetically give you a PPG higher than that if rotated perfectly. However, I'm not sure on how to measure this. Any suggestions are welcome.

    The conclusions I was able to draw were: Elite Defenders give great value. At the very least, it makes sense to have 2-3 in your team as your main starting defenders. Most cheap mid-tier midfielders can give you really good value. However, even the elite midfielders are not BAD for value.

    When it comes to forwards and goalkeepers, they give you little value for excess spend in them.

    Let's just take the example of Ivanovic, Hazard, Courtois and Aguero to see how much they give you.

    Courtois gives you 3.77 PPG while Butland gives you about 3.49. That's a 0.28 gain by spending 1 full dollar.

    Ivanovic gives you 4.4 PPG while Morgan gives you 2.71 PPG. That's a 0.676 gain by spending 1 full dollar (Ivanovic is 2.5 dollars more expensive).

    Hazard gives you 6.05 PPG while King gives you 2.76 PPG. That's a 0.47 gain by spending 1 full dollar (since Hazard was 7 dollars more expensive).

    Aguero gives you 6.28 PPG while Defoe gives you 3.63 PPG. That's a 0.33 gain by spending 1 full dollar (Aguero is 8 dollars more expensive than him).

    I hope that clarified it. If I've gone wrong anywhere / made any bad assumption, please do raise it up - I would love to improve this further.

    1. Diva
      • 9 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Thank you for taking time to explain your methodology and writing the original article.

      1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
        • 10 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        Thanks! Hope it helps.

        I personally quite like it and will be using it to structure my team - at least focusing on 3 premium defenders at a minimum.

    2. RedLightning
      • Has Moderation Rights
      • 13 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      I hadn't read this when I posted my reply below. It does explain what the scores represent, but I would still like to see what your 4-5-1 squad with a 100.0m budget would actually look like.

      1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
        • 10 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        Just did that. That's not the final squad I'll go for, just something I had come up with to see how the system "looks".

        As explained before, not sold on the 4-5-1 yet - looking to do research on that. But definitely sold on the value of spending good money for your 3 defenders. Fact is, we all have to play 3 def, 3 mid and 1 fwd each week.

        1. RedLightning
          • Has Moderation Rights
          • 13 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          I agree that there is a good argument for not being too miserly in our spending on defenders.

          But I still think that 3-4-3, 3-5-2, 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 are all better than 4-5-1.

          1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
            • 10 Years
            8 years, 10 months ago

            Yup. Maybe. I'm going to run the numbers on formations and get back to you there (it's a little complicated IMO).

    3. Zlatan The Magician
      • 12 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      This is Gold. Using PPG never made sense to me, as it so obviously skewed the figures.

      Hopefully Jonty and the Gang will ask you to do a Members Post with the data you have used.

      That should help skew the FFS League results in the OR even more.

      Thanks

      1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
        • 10 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        Cheers!

        I know I have something here, still not sure how accurate it'll turn out to be. That said, I will definitely taking a stab with this.

        Ideally, if Jonty and co would be able to estimate projected games next season (the same way they do projected minutes), we would be at a much better footing. With limited data, I had very few ways to get a *rough* projection on that.

    4. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Sorry, had a small typo here (and the article). Baseline for forwards was Jerome not Defoe.

  24. FPLMarc
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 12 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    A huge decision this year is deciding which of the 'Big Four' to leave out - Hazard, Sanchez, Aguero, Rooney.

    Each has a solid alternative - Fabregas, Walcott, Costa (arguably a big hitter himself), Benteke.

    I know that logically replacing Aguero with Costa and having an extra £2m is right..... yet I just cant leave him out. What's the right answer?

    1. Old Man
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 12 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Get them all. Sorry, flippant answer.
      Can you not keep Costa for the first three weeks and then get Aguero (with downsize elsewhere)

  25. RedLightning
    • Has Moderation Rights
    • 13 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    I don't understand what the scores are intended to represent, but if you take the highest ones in 4-5-1 formation, all the players are priced at either 5.0m or 5.5m (apart from Cisse, who is 6.5m). Add 19.0m for your bench, and the total value of your squad is less than 80.0m.

    This might be the best squad you can get for 80.0m, but it doesn't prove much about what the best formation would be with a 100.0m budget.

    You have also omitted a large number of players, including all the other 4.5m goalkeepers and potential bargains such Deeney and Wilson, and you have not allowed for captaincy or rotation.

    What would your 100.0m squad in 4-5-1 formation look like according to your calculations? And would this be intended to be a starting squad or a dead team squad?

    1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      As explained a little above, these are the best "bang for your buck" situations.

      Ideally, you want to use players giving you a high "bang for your buck" while also making sure you spend the full 100 million.

      An example 4-5-1 I had looked at:

      Stekelenburg / 4.5
      Clyne / Azpi / Kos / Cedric / 4.5
      Walcott / Hazard / Henderson / Mane / Ozil
      Kane / Ighalo / Jerome

      Not 100% sold on players etc obv. But good to give an idea what one can do.

      I'm not 100% on a 4-5-1 myself, but I definitely think having 3 premium defenders makes a lot of sense. The reason I'm not a 100% sure is that while all this holds true for the basic 3-3-1 (fixed players you have to have), the last 3 players in your starting XI can be from *any* position. So the baselines for these final 3 players may be slightly different - I have to still figure this part out.

      1. RedLightning
        • Has Moderation Rights
        • 13 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        With that squad, why not bench Cedric and play 3-5-2?

        Or find another 0.5m to upgrade Ighalo or Jerome to Wilson or Deeney? You could do this by downgrading Cedric or Stekelenberg to a 4.5m.

        And what are you doing about the captaincy? Are you sure you can manage without Aguero?

        1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
          • 10 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          I'm not running with this squad yet. But if I was to:

          - Yup, I would be using that bench quite a bit. Mostly based on fixtures.
          - Not worried on captaincy. I have Hazard to begin and it's fairly easy to bring in a Sanchez or Silva (while downgrading say a Kane - who I assume isn't playing like last season in this example).

  26. OShaughnessy
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 11 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    Something else to note, we won't keep a static team for our entire season.
    (In Dead Team challenge, this might be a good strat. to follow.)

    Although, with FT's, Pt Hits, WC's & rotating Captain's choices, this is all rather moot.

    Example:
    Few owned Sanchez when he faced Che & City early last year.
    And, no one had him for the entire season due to his injuries.
    But, those who captained him for his run vs. Hul, Sun, Bur & Swa were well rewarded.

    In the end, what truly matters is a player's Point per Game when they're playing for us.

    1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Absolutely. Fixtures, etc make a huge difference.

      But even though Tadic had a 20 pt haul while Hazard didn't, we'd all prefer Hazard in our teams right? That's because, on average, Hazard will be scoring more.

      1. OShaughnessy
        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
        • 11 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        Again, this is flawed logic.

        I happily used our Season Ticker last season & owned both Pelle & Tadic for their run vs. New, Swa, Qpr, Sun, & Stk.

        I then shipped them out for their run vs. City, Ars, & Utd right around X-mas.

        Tadic's Points per Game *for my team*, were FAR higher than Hazard's could ever hope to be.

        Not a knock on Hazard mind you, more that we shouldn't get caught up in only looking at season-long points per game projections.

        1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
          • 10 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          Fair. However, consider this:

          If my hypothesis is: A premium defender gives me more value for money than a premium forward.

          Basically, instead of bringing in Pelle for good Soton fixtures, I would be able to bring in Fonte. You still play fixtures on the teams, it's just the personnel that changes.

          Would rather own Fonte + Sakho (with 0.5m invested elsewhere - hell, I could get JRod hypothetically) than a 4.5 + Pelle as an example.

          1. OShaughnessy
            • Fantasy Football Scout Member
            • 11 Years
            8 years, 10 months ago

            > If my hypothesis is: A premium defender gives me more value for money than a premium forward.

            Not quite because we can captain a player like Pelle due to the fact that a premium forward's ceiling is far higher than any defender's.

            And, again over the course of a year you're correct but, as we've seen points per game over the course of the year isn't *that* important due to the fact we used FT's, WC, Pts Hits & rotate our Captain's choices.

            > Basically, instead of bringing in Pelle for good Soton fixtures, I would be able to bring in Fonte. You still play fixtures on the teams, it's just the personnel that changes.

            What, why?
            Why would we ever dream of replacing Pelle in this scenario?
            He scored 6 goals in 6 games!
            We got to captain him for a game too...
            His PPG over that stretch rivaled the likes of Costa, Sanchez & Aguero at their best.
            So, why would we ever want Fonte or even Ivan instead?

            (Not to mention the fact, that good attacking fixtures don't necessaiely mean they're also good opportunities for a CS too)

            1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
              • 10 Years
              8 years, 10 months ago

              While I agree that I haven't factored in captaincy and rotation, one usually finds that a premium attacker can be a mid or a forward.

              So, in my team, I could be able to have Tadic or Mane instead of Pelle. That isn't the worst thing in the world.

              I'm not trying to figure out what players to play for a whole season, just trying to figure out what structure works best.

              1. Dino
                • Fantasy Football Scout Member
                • 14 Years
                8 years, 10 months ago

                A lot of your "value " players are players that are not nailed on and pretty much unpicable as a result. Could you filter your results for players that are projected to play greater than 3/4 of the season maybe?

            2. Dino
              • Fantasy Football Scout Member
              • 14 Years
              8 years, 10 months ago

              What you're missing is that when you sold pelle and brought in lukaku for his nice run then benteke for his nice run and capt them that they only scored 2 ppg (eg) wrote the premium def you could have been bringing in for the nice runs of games would likely have been scoring at a more steady rate and would end up with more points per million spent extra per position according to this analysis.

              Of course you will have players that will prove to be exceptions in every position each year and sore far better than their price and if you can find these at the back it can leave us more money to invest further up the pitch on raw points rather than value

              1. OShaughnessy
                • Fantasy Football Scout Member
                • 11 Years
                8 years, 10 months ago

                Dino, if we look at any decent team from last year's score & compare it to the *Dream Team's* final score the former smashes the latter every time.

                Fact of the matter is, attackers have much higher ceilings than def.
                And, if we know what we're doing then they can offer much better PPM, for the duration of their stay on our rosters.

                Following that, 'what you're missing' 😉 is most decent 4.5mil defenders also offer spectacular PPM in their own right.

                Then when we factor in the boost our team's pts totals get from rotating them... Look out!

                I know we don't look at players in sets of 2 or in a vacuum but:
                11mil - Ivan & 4mil
                9mil - Roatating pair of def & 2mil extra for attack

                1. Dino
                  • Fantasy Football Scout Member
                  • 14 Years
                  8 years, 10 months ago

                  Hey I'm not saying I agree with him.just that I can see where he is coming from. In fact I would be more in your camp i.e. we need to find as much value in the lower ceiling positions as possible and try to ride form and fixtures in the higher ceiling positions further up the pitch.

                  I don't think rotating defenders or gks is as successful as we might think due to the unpredictability of when teams get cs but if we are good enough we can pick up attacking players in "form" who are coming into a nice run of fixtures and who are maybe playing a more integral role in their team due to.injuries or change I'm tactics to get a major rank boost. I think Sanchez is an extreme example of thus fir his spell playing up front beside giroud for a spell last season.

                  Personally I like to pick two big hitters for capt at the start and then look for players I think are under priced based on what I think they and their team will do this year compared to last year. If you can get for example 11 players who outperform their fpl price by 0.5m each then it is like starting with an extra 5.5m on your rivals. To me this is the only place value can be helpful i.e. trying to identify players that may be undervalued by the game.
                  I do think however that you really need to look beyond the raw numbers here due to the reasons you are pointing out i.e. form, fixtures, injuries, tactical chahges, European commitments etcetera can all lead to the value stats been skewed massively from season to season. I mean look at pantilimon last season with three cs away to Liverpool away to arsenal and home to Chelsea with huge save points in those games too. Take away these statustical anomalies and he probably looks no better than smeichel. Tadic is another on with his huge haul and mane another with his hat rick when playing no 9 (was it away to sunderland or was that bollaise? Same point applies ).

                  1. OShaughnessy
                    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
                    • 11 Years
                    8 years, 10 months ago

                    > Hey I'm not saying I agree with him.just that I can see where he is coming from. In fact I would be more in your camp

                    Coulda fooled me. *wink

                    > I don't think rotating defenders or gks is as successful as we might think due to the unpredictability of when teams get cs

                    I agree w/ GK, as it's a 50/50-ish choice.
                    Although, choosing 3 of 5 defenders gives us a much better shot at a one CS & subsequent BP's.
                    (Even 1 of 3 CS + BP's is a decent return on our 13.5mil)

                    > trying to identify players that may be undervalued by the game.

                    Agree, 110%.
                    Buying low in any marketplace will put us ahead every time.

                    > value stats been skewed massively from season to season

                    This. So much this!
                    Too much looking back & not enough creating future projections 'round here.

                    > Tadic is another on with his huge haul and Mane another with his hat rick

                    Humblebrag alert!
                    Owned both & speaking of regression / value stats being skewed...
                    I weep for my OR rank this season bc there's NO way I'm gonna get that *lucky* again this year.

                    Thanks for the back & forth Dino.
                    You've been here much longer than me (Heck, I remember when you actually had the Dino grav!)
                    And, I respect that those extra years come w/ FPL Wisdom sir.

                    Best of luck this year mate!

                    1. Dino
                      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
                      • 14 Years
                      8 years, 10 months ago

                      Same to you buddy, I wouldn't worry too much about your overall rank though you have a great handle on the nuances of the game

                      1. OShaughnessy
                        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
                        • 11 Years
                        8 years, 10 months ago

                        Dino, just curious wheres home?

                      2. Dino
                        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
                        • 14 Years
                        8 years, 10 months ago

                        Galway

  27. Axel5000
    • 9 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    Am I right in hearing that GK saves are more favourable this year with regard to BPS?

    1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Yup. There's a post on the actual calculations. It doesn't make a massive difference in final bonus points though (but there's definitely a bit).

    2. RedLightning
      • Has Moderation Rights
      • 13 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      It makes quite a significant difference for goalkeepers, actually.

      The biggest beneficiary if the same rules had applied last season would have been Pantilimon, who would have scored an additional 10 bonus points.

      https://public.tableau.com/views/2015-16bpsanalysis/Detailedtablebaps?%3AshowVizHome=no#1

      1. Dino
        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
        • 14 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        That was mainly as a result of a few fluke results namely cs away to Liverpool, away to arsenal and v Chelsea. They might get these again but you wouldn't put money on it if you were a betting man.

        1. RedLightning
          • Has Moderation Rights
          • 13 Years
          8 years, 10 months ago

          BAPS for goalkeepers last season, and what they would have got under this season's rules:

          Guzan 3 -> 10
          Heaton 11 -> 16
          Courtois 1 -> 5
          Speroni 7 -> 9
          Howard 1 -> 3
          Schmeichel 6 -> 9
          Mignolet 6 -> 11
          Hart 3 -> 5
          Krul 5 -> 7
          Green 7 -> 10
          Lloris 6 -> 10
          Pantilimon 7 -> 17
          Fabianski 9 -> 14
          Myhill 6 -> 8
          Adrian 6 -> 10

          That isn't just a few fluke results, it's a clear trend.

          You might not be able to predict when the goalkeepers will get their extra bonus points, or which ones will get the most, butt they will definitely get significantly more than last season.

          1. Dino
            • Fantasy Football Scout Member
            • 14 Years
            8 years, 10 months ago

            Yeah I wasn't saying that gks won't get more bonus but that it is almost impossible to predict which gk will get them. They basically need a few fluke results with loads of saves coupled with cs to get any significant bonus increase and any of the weaker teams can do this.

            The majority of gks apart from the ones with freak results are only likely to get 2 or 3 bonus more which isn't going to be a game breaker. The Chelsea gks would have got the third biggest increase in bonus last year so it is not just the weaker teams gk that will profit either.

            1. RedLightning
              • Has Moderation Rights
              • 13 Years
              8 years, 10 months ago

              The 15 goalkeepers listed would have scored an extra 4 bonus points each on average.

              We may not be able to predict when the freak results will occur, but in the course of a full season there are certain to be a few, and probably more than one per team.

              1. Dino
                • Fantasy Football Scout Member
                • 14 Years
                8 years, 10 months ago

                That's my point, the changes are more or less irrelevant as every gk will almost have an equal chance to benefit from them although low scoring teams getting cs after back to the walls performance probably have an edge over the likes of Joe Hart. Basically we can ignore the extra bonus for gks as they all benefit more or less the same

  28. tm245
    • 12 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    @Mesut, thanks for posting so much more information. It's an intriguing metric to use and the explanations help clarify the numbers.

    However, I still don't know if stockpiling "value" players based solely on any of our points/pounds spent metrics is the way to go. To me, these metrics present the opportunity to find the best choices at some of the crucial, cheap price points so we can spend our extra money on as many premiums as possible.

    Sakho and Cisse have been the standout attackers at 6.5m or less for me this summer, since we can be reasonably assured that they will bring home near premium returns when they are healthy (though I am not sure if Mitrovic impacts Cisse negatively yet). They are also easily interchangeable for each other, Berahino, Diouf, or any cheaper forward who catches fire.

    But I don't think I want both. Even though Benteke, Giroud, or Kane will not necessarily deliver the same value, they might very well get more points, even at an inefficient cost/million. At some point, we need to embrace the inefficiency and accept that the players can't deliver outlier returns but can still get us more points. I'm not sure that a 4-5-1 allows for that.

    1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      Absolutely I'm still not sold on any formations myself. I think one has to remember that we are forced to play a 3-3-1 and that this is a fantastic way to plan for that. The last 3 positions may have to be judged on a different metric (because the baseline should hypothetically be common for them as they can be interchanged).

      What I do know so far is pertaining simply to:

      1 GK - I would probably be avoiding much investment here. Maybe a Stekelenberg at best. Otherwise a 4.5.

      3 DEF - I would definitely be investing money here. Atleast 3x5.5. One of them likely upgraded to Ivan/Azpi/Terry.

      3 MID - I would be bringing in some premium midfielders here without a doubt. Walcott, Hazard, Henderson probably a good start.

      1 FWD - I would probably start by putting in a Sakho style forward here. At best, upgrade to Kane (and nobody in between).

      So, I would have this shell:

      Stekelenberg / ?
      Clyne / Azpi / Fonte / ? / ?
      Hazard / Walcott / Henderson / ? / ?
      Sakho / ? / ?

      .. around which to plan my team. Now, I can figure out how to structure my team in the last 3 positions to maximize returns.

  29. dribbler
    • 14 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    what a load of rubbish this article is...(I'm sick of explaining why):

    (a) estimate points per game for each player
    (b) put together a squad of cheap players with good ppg
    (c) start adding players who ADD high points per £0.5m starting with the cheaper players
    (d) make sure you are sticking to players who you think will play most weeks
    (e) make sure you have at least one stellar captain...he is effectively half price

    1. WHY ALWAYS MESUT?
      • 10 Years
      8 years, 10 months ago

      You may be sick of explaining why, but the fact is that you didn't even explain it once.

      1. dribbler
        • 14 Years
        8 years, 10 months ago

        sorry for being rude

        I've explained this many times over many years...but you'd need to look back at my responses to other articles similar to your own over the last few weeks if you care what I think...it's easy to see my posts...they're the big long ones

  30. t4thomas
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 11 Years
    8 years, 10 months ago

    So, at 8M quid... Chester is nailed on right?