Scout Notes
9 August 2021 434 comments
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We round up the Fantasy Premier League (FPL) talking points from Sunday’s pre-season matches in our latest Scout Notes article.

You can read about the goals, assists, injury news and FPL takeaways from Saturday’s games below:

Don’t forget to check out our comprehensive pre-season page for more information on the action taking place ahead of Gameweek 1.

LIVERPOOL 1-1 ATHLETIC BILBAO

  • Goals: Diogo Jota (£7.5m)
  • Assists: Sadio Mané (£12.0m)

Diogo Jota (£7.5m) was on target as Liverpool drew 1-1 with Athletic Bilbao at Anfield, although Andrew Robertson‘s (£7.0m) injury took the shine off the occasion.

The Scottish international was forced off in the first half after appearing to twist his right ankle when blocking a cross.

Now manager Jürgen Klopp must wait to learn the severity of the injury to Robertson, who did not miss a single league match in the previous campaign:

We obviously don’t know in the moment how serious it is. It was pretty painful and that’s why Andy went off. You probably saw it on the TV pictures better than we did, but he got the ball, the ball on the front of his foot, [and] twisted the ankle. The pain settled already, but we cannot say anything further without further assessment tomorrow. He has to get a scan and then we will know more.”

A prolonged spell on the sidelines would have huge FPL implications, with the rarely seen Greek Konstantinos Tsimikas (£4.0m) possibly in line to deputise, though it is worth noting that James Milner (£5.0m) is another option at left-back.

As Lateriser pointed out in his recent team reveal, it may also mean that Trent Alexander-Arnold (£7.5m) sees more of the ball at set-piece situations.

On a more positive note, Virgil van Dijk (£6.5m) made his long-awaited return to Anfield as he continues to step up his recovery, while youngster Harvey Elliot also impressed, with the latter creating plenty of opportunities from central midfield and almost scoring himself.

Liverpool’s pre-season fixtures conclude tonight with Osasuna visiting Anfield.

Liverpool XI: Alisson, Alexander-Arnold, Matip, Van Dijk (R Williams 72), Robertson (Beck 45), Milner, Keita (Cain 84), Elliott (Morton 84), Mane, Salah, Jota (Woodburn 72).

ASTON VILLA 3-1 SALERNITANA

  • Goals: Danny Ings (£8.0m), Anwar El Ghazi (£6.0m), Ashley Young (£5.0m)
  • Assists: Jaden Philogene-Bidace, Ollie Watkins (£7.5m), Matt Cash (£5.0m)

Aston Villa completed their pre-season preparations on Sunday with a 3-1 win over Serie A newcomers Salernitana.

Set up in a 4-4-2/4-2-2-2 formation, it took new signing Danny Ings (£8.0m) all of 33 minutes to score as he converted youngster Jaden Philogene-Bidace’s deflected cutback. 

Strike partner Ollie Watkins (£7.5m) was then bundled over inside the box, with Anwar El Ghazi (£6.0m) converting the penalty, before Villa sealed the win in the second half when Ashley Young (£5.0m) finished smartly from Matt Cash’s (£5.0m) cross. 

However, the run-out came at a cost, with Watkins hobbling off just after half-time as he held what appeared to be his thigh muscle in some discomfort. 

With new signing Emiliano Buendía (£6.5m) also watching from the stands as he continues to deal with a minor injury, it is a concern for Dean Smith ahead of Saturday’s trip to Watford. 

No official update has emerged from the club just yet.

Tactically, Ings would often roam and drop deeper when out of possession with Watkins staying on the shoulder of the opposition centre-backs.

The new formation showed plenty of promise going forward, with Ings’ performance suggesting he’ll be ready to lead the line in Gameweek 1, though it is worth noting that the two-striker system did leave Villa a little open at the back and more susceptible to counter-attacks.

Aston Villa XI: Martinez (Steer 45), Cash, Konsa (Hause 61), Mings, Targett, McGinn (Hourihane 61), Nakamba (J Ramsey 61), Philogene-Bidace (Traore 61), El Ghazi, Watkins (Chukwuemeka 48), Ings (Young 61)

TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR 1-0 ARSENAL

  • Goals: Son Heung-min (£10.0m)
  • Assists: Japhet Tanganga (£4.5m)

Son Heung-min’s (£10.0m) late winner ensured Tottenham Hotspur took the north London derby honours with a deserved 1-0 win over Arsenal.

The South Korean international, who was again tasked with leading the attack in the absence of Harry Kane (£12.5m), settled the match with his third goal of pre-season after 79 minutes following some wonderful play by Japhet Tanganga (£4.5m).

Tanganga’s inclusion at right-back meant that Matt Doherty (£5.0m) and Serge Aurier (£5.0m) missed out, with the youngster doing his prospects no harm at all, while the match also saw Dele Alli (£6.5m) hit the post in either half.

Nuno Espírito Santo said:

“It wasn’t an outstanding performance, I wouldn’t say that. We are in the process of trying to improve. Each day, we get better. Honestly, it’s not yet what we expect and what we have the ambition to be – a good team, a compact team, solid. There were good movements and offensive chances, but they have to be finished well. But, very good things, we also played a very good team, our local rivals, and it was a good game, so lots of aspects to take on board.”

Nuno also revealead that new signing Cristian Romero didn’t feature because of a knee injury:

“He didn’t train yet with the group, it is true. He finished the last game with a problem. It is much better now but we have to be very careful first, not take any chances. Like all the players, we have to manage a lot of aspects until we decide to put the player on the pitch. But he is here, he looks good. When he starts training in a normal way, he will become an option.”

Arsenal, meanwhile, continue to struggle in attack themselves, with Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang (£10.0m) and Nicolas Pépé (£7.5m) failing to make an impact, though Alexandre Lacazette (£8.5m) did hit the woodwork in the second half.

Elsewhere, Ben White‘s (£4.5m) performance was encouraging, as he regularly stepped up to win possession and played out from the back with real assertiveness.

Tottenham Hotspur XI: Lloris (Gollini 68), Tanganga (Aurier 87), Sanchez (Rodon 73), Dier, Reguilon, Skipp (Winks 84), Hojbjerg (Lo Celso 68), Bergwijn, Dele, Lucas, Son (Scarlett 84)

Arsenal XI: Leno, Bellerin (Maitland-Niles 64), White (Chambers 63), Mari, Tierney (Tavares 81), Lokonga (Elneny 73), Xhaka (Cedric 81), Pepe (Nelson 81), Smith Rowe, Aubameyang (Saka 63), Lacazette (Balogun 73)

434 Comments Login to Post a Comment
  1. Catastrophe
    • 14 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Help appreciated chaps, any major issues? Loosely planning GW3 Mahrez & Greenwood -> Son & Raphinha/Buendia.

    Sanchez
    TAA, Shaw, White, Tsimikas
    Salah, Fernandes, Mahrez, Greenwood
    Ings, Antonio

    (Foster, Veltman, Brownhill, Obafemi)

    Cheers.

  2. Chandler Bing
    • 9 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Just realized that Patson Daka is Zambian.

    Now I know when to remove Salah from my FPL team.

    1. Rupert The Horse
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 12 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      😆 😆 😆

  3. Rupert The Horse
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 12 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Oh bugger, didn’t realise Jota scored, that’s just confusing.

    1. Baps Hunter
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 8 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      No Robertson crossing can be issue for Salah. Jota is almost must have GW1 imo, but choosing between him, TAA and Tsimikas is difficult. If Milner starts, Tsimikas is a trap. On the other hand downgradingTAA to Tsimikas allows getting Son. This situation feels like a gamble, no matter what.

  4. mcginnntonic
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 6 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Bottomed
    RMT

    Sanchez / (foster)
    Trent / Shaw / Coufal (amartey / omo)
    Salah / Bruno / Jota / Barnes / Benrahma
    Bamford / Ings / (4.5m)

    a) 4.5m def & toney
    b) coufal & benrahma

    1. The Pesci challenge
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 11 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Just B

    2. JBG
      • 7 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      B

  5. Make United Great Again
    • 13 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    The FPL community are really punting on Liverpool’s 4.0 left back. Do we know how long Robertson is injured?

  6. RUUD!
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 13 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Why don't people think Bobby will start soonish, didn't he play against Bologna on Thursday?

    1. Zimo
      • 7 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Hope

    2. Bushwhacker
      • 6 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Likely playing today I would think. He's back and fit . . . Jota is a rotation risk.

  7. JBG
    • 7 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    A) ESR+Mahrez+Ings
    Or
    B) Benrahma+Son+Toney

  8. RohanVaswani
    • 14 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    A) Harrison Digne

    B) Raphina Coleman?

    1. JBG
      • 7 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      A

    2. Club-De-Belon
      • 4 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      A. There is not much a difference between H. and R., one is more efficient (H) other is more dangerous but without so much results (R), but there is a huge difference between Digne and Coleman.

    3. Miguel Sanchez
      • 9 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      A

    4. FourLokoLeipzig
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 7 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      A

  9. Rupert The Horse
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 12 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Any Watford fans prepared to pick some players to add to the watch list or squad 'enablers'?

    1. Miguel Sanchez
      • 9 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      I think Bachmann will have a better combination of saves, clean sheets and bonuses to be the pick of the 4.5 GKs

      1. CRAZY TRAIN
        • 14 Years
        4 years, 3 months ago

        What about Raya? Not seen any mention of him on here but I get the feeling Brentford are in a better place than Watford right now.

        1. Miguel Sanchez
          • 9 Years
          4 years, 3 months ago

          Conceded more last season and are a more attacking team so BPS could end up with the attackers in clean sheet wins.

    2. sk24
      • 8 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Just a simple Perica vs Mebude comparison if they can, that's all.

      1. Baps Hunter
        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
        • 8 Years
        4 years, 3 months ago

        I read here today that Mebude is going to be loaned away. Ditched Obafemi to Perica after that.

  10. Club-De-Belon
    • 4 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Any news on Bailey? Ready to play? Need some 6.5 but want to wait for leeds until GW5 and check them in eye-test.

    1. Jimbob99
      • 4 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      V unlikely first game, potentially first few games. Think he's still in Jamaica and hasn't played in pre-season at all.

      1. Club-De-Belon
        • 4 Years
        4 years, 3 months ago

        Thanks. I really want AVL double-up, but with Buendia injured, Bailey out, I am not sure if I could have someone. El Ghazi? I am not sure if he is worth it.

        1. Hint
          • Fantasy Football Scout Member
          • 6 Years
          4 years, 3 months ago

          My first draft had a Villa double up (Buendia, Watkins) but it's all got a lot more confusing over the last few weeks with Grealish leaving, Buendia and Watkins doubts, and Ings and Bailey being signed.

          I could see Ashley Young starting at LW ahead of El Ghazi so wouldn't go there if I were you. El Ghazi will also probably lose not just his place but penalty duties (to Ings) so the upside isn't worth the risk for me.

          I'm sticking with just Ings for now I think - though if I knew Buendia was ready to go I'd be tempted.

          Bailey is a wait and see for me - could be a few weeks until we see him.

  11. 3 A
    • 10 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Will Kane start gw 1?

    1. House Frey Wedding Planner
      • 7 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Unlikely

    2. Andy_Social
      • 13 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Nuno says yes. The world says no.

    3. Carefree Crew
      • 7 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Nuno said he's available. Source: Sky sports transfer centre

      If he starts or even plays who knows.

  12. Vamos Los Celeste
    • 12 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Thoughts, Lads?
    Sanchez Foster
    Stones Shaw Coufal Tsimikas 4.0
    Salah Bruno Barnes Gundo Gilmour
    Laca Ings Antonio

    1. TallestJohn
      • 8 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Don't like the Laca pick with the wealth of options at 6.5-8m

      1. Vamos Los Celeste
        • 12 Years
        4 years, 3 months ago

        Already got Ings and Antonio.
        Any other suggestions other than Toney DCL Iheanacho Daka?

        1. TallestJohn
          • 8 Years
          4 years, 3 months ago

          Maupay has decent fixtures but too outlandish for me, Toney or DCL the best bet imo

    2. Carefree Crew
      • 7 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Considered Wilson?
      Sick note triple up! (Ings, Antonio, Wilson)
      What could possibly go wrong! 🙂

  13. jaguar shark
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 12 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Arsenal fans: how nailed is Smith Rowe for starts?

    1. Miguel Sanchez
      • 9 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Nailed til they sign another No. 10

  14. CRAZY TRAIN
    • 14 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    If Watkins is out for GW1 then Ashley Young could be a very tempting OOP option on the left. I watched the second half and he was very assured playing there and wasn't lacking at all in fitness/pace.

    1. Baines on Toast...
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 15 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Against his old club as well. But surely just one week in him?

      1. CRAZY TRAIN
        • 14 Years
        4 years, 3 months ago

        Yes thats the flip side. Its a short term punt, but it could be worth a shot. I'm planning on bringing in Son GW2 so Young + money in the bank could be an option.

    2. Ask Yourself
      • 9 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      El Ghazi more likely to play there

      1. CRAZY TRAIN
        • 14 Years
        4 years, 3 months ago

        No, AEG normally plays on the right

        1. Ask Yourself
          • 9 Years
          4 years, 3 months ago

          That isn’t very true of last year

          1. CRAZY TRAIN
            • 14 Years
            4 years, 3 months ago

            Jack played on the left and Trezeguet was his backup (up to his injury). AEG is a right winger (and rotated with Traore). That's not to say he hasn't covered on the left, but he is a natural right winger. Based on yesterdays performance I can see Smith playing Young on the left to cover Watkins (it was where he played for us previously before he went to manure).

            1. Ask Yourself
              • 9 Years
              4 years, 3 months ago

              Mate I’m just trying to save you from wasting 5m El Ghazi is 100% a left winger

        2. Zimo
          • 7 Years
          4 years, 3 months ago

          He played left mostly last year no? When Grealish was injured.

        3. Hint
          • Fantasy Football Scout Member
          • 6 Years
          4 years, 3 months ago

          AEG played almost exclusively on the left and isn't very good from the right. Trez was back up to Traore on the right.

          1. CRAZY TRAIN
            • 14 Years
            4 years, 3 months ago

            I've acknowledged that he has played on the left (when Jack was injured) but he is naturally right footed and his principle position is a RWF (Google it!)! I see Ash Young deputising for Watkins on the left (a point that you yourself appear to have acknowledged in another post above)

        4. Baked baines
          • 11 Years
          4 years, 3 months ago

          Who’s AEG?

          1. Baked baines
            • 11 Years
            4 years, 3 months ago

            Nevermind

          2. stamboy
            • 12 Years
            4 years, 3 months ago

            lol

  15. chaser123
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 7 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Sanchez
    TAA Shaw Coufal Tsimikas
    Salah Bruno Havertz Greenwood
    Antonio Toney

    (Steele White Brownhill Obafemi)

    £1.5m ITB ready for Havertz to Son/Mahrez. Thoughts?

  16. Oooo Matron
    • 9 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Anything you'd change here?

    Bachmann
    TAA Shaw Amartey
    Raphina Salah Son Greenwood Mahrez
    Ings Antonio

    Subs: Foster, White, Veltman, Obafemi

  17. squ1rrel
    • 11 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    GTG?

    Sanchez
    TAA - Shaw - Coufal - Tsimikas
    Salah - Bruno - Son - Barnes
    Ings - Toney

    Steele - Amartey - Brownhill - Obafemi

    0.5 ITB

  18. Bishopool
    • 14 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Without Grealish.. picking Ings would be too optimistic? AV isnt the same maybe. Creativity turned off..

    1. RamaJama
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 13 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Think it’s A good shout.

      Watkins, Buendia, Young etc. will help Ings

      1. RamaJama
        • Fantasy Football Scout Member
        • 13 Years
        4 years, 3 months ago

        And Bailey

    2. FOMFF
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 10 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Watford look terrible, good chance he bags a couple in the first 3. And an easy switch to another mid priced Fwd, with some change.

    3. Big dog
      • 4 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      He did alright at southampton

    4. Bushwhacker
      • 6 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      They're better without Grealish and with their new signings IMHO

  19. Club-De-Belon
    • 4 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Bertrand or Castange or Pereira?

    1. Baps Hunter
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 8 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Pereira looked good in CS.

  20. RamaJama
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 13 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Which 1 to drop?

    A) Harrison
    B) Benrahma
    C) Jota
    D) Barnes

    1. Club-De-Belon
      • 4 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      1. Jota
      2. Benrahma
      3. none

    2. Bobby Digital
      • 8 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      A

    3. Twisted Saltergater
      • 16 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      I have B, C, D, so I'm going to say A.

    4. Miguel Sanchez
      • 9 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      A

  21. Miguel Sanchez
    • 9 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Which combo:

    A) Greenwood and Tsimikas
    B) Jota and White (any 4.5)

    1. Bobby Digital
      • 8 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      B

    2. Holmes
      • 12 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      B

    3. Twisted Saltergater
      • 16 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Afternoon Miguel. B for me.

    4. RamaJama
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 13 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      B

  22. b91jh
    • 8 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    How do my team look? Thanks!!

    Bachmann
    TAA Shaw Coufal White
    Salah Son Mahrez Greenwood
    Ings Antonio

    Foster Harrison Obafemi Omobamidele

    Also considering Bruno+Torres instead of Son+Mahrez

    1. Bobby Digital
      • 8 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Looks good

  23. Botman and Robben
    • 9 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Son is just really tempting me...

    1. Twisted Saltergater
      • 16 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Only worth it if you're going to captain him in GW3 or 4, imo.

  24. Alisson WondHaaland
    • 9 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    352 with Antonio Ings up top is great imo.

    Good early fixtures and can easily move to Pukki/Toney/Jimi if they hit form or move into a good fixture run.

    Although Toney seems like a good pick, its quite difficult to move him on if he doesn't hit the ground running, Pukki from GW5 is the only obvious option.

    The fixtures are a bit deceptive too, they look good on the FDR but in the first 5 GWs (when they have their 'good' run of fixtures) they have 3 away games and the 2 home games are vs Arsenal and Brighton which are by no means bad defences.

    The Palace fixture is the only one with high appeal imo

    1. FOMFF
      • Fantasy Football Scout Member
      • 10 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Agreed.

    2. Twisted Saltergater
      • 16 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      They're my front 2 atm. Just worried about the ownership of Toney. Arsenal look poor right now and then it's Palace. He could be close to 7m by the international break :/

  25. La Roja
    • 13 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    What’s with Tsimikas love? Jurgen can easily play Milner on left.

    1. Zimo
      • 7 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Indeed it is a gamble

    2. Club-De-Belon
      • 4 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Mania because of 4.0 price-tag. Just avoid.

    3. Holmes
      • 12 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Just a punt

    4. ᶠᶦˡᵗʰʸLucre $$$
      • 10 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      4.0 innit

    5. Twisted Saltergater
      • 16 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Thing is, is anyone short of funds right now? KdB, Lukaku, Kane all out of GW1. We've also been presented with a 4m defender in Amartey so it's even like Tsimikas frees up 0.5m on the bench.

      1. Miguel Sanchez
        • 9 Years
        4 years, 3 months ago

        Locks out of Jota who looks a steal for the first couple of GWs assuming you already have Salah/TAA

        1. Twisted Saltergater
          • 16 Years
          4 years, 3 months ago

          True, I'm riding with Jota unless Firmino uproots trees this evening.

        2. Andy_Social
          • 13 Years
          4 years, 3 months ago

          Right. I'm on TAA, Salah, Jota.

          I played around with getting in Tsimi for TAA - extra 3.5m to spread around. Then I went proper manic and tried 3x4.0m defenders. Looked fab in a sense but I just knew it would bite me. So I'd keeping my Pool 3 and just adding Amartey to the bench.

        3. The Rumour Mill
          • 8 Years
          4 years, 3 months ago

          The uncertainty over Tsimikas can equally be applied to Jota

    6. House Frey Wedding Planner
      • 7 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      A 4.0 defender that's likely to play. Most 4.0 defenders won't get near the first team.

      Only issue is that it takes up a Liverpool place in the squad

    7. Bushwhacker
      • 6 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      He could but considering they bought Tskimikas for precisely this reason it would be an odd choice.

  26. aapoman
    • 12 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Any opinions on this one?

    Bachmann
    TAA Shaw Veltman
    Salah Bruno Son Raphinha Benrahma
    Antonio Toney

    Foster; Amartey, Ayling, Obafemi

    1. Twisted Saltergater
      • 16 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      It's fine, gl.

  27. Catastrophe
    • 14 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    A) Ings, Mahrez, White (Veltman, Brownhill, Obafemi)
    B) Ings, Gundogan, Dias (White, Brownhill, Obafemi)
    C) Toney, Son, Coufal (White, Brownhill, Obafemi)

    Cheers

    1. Twisted Saltergater
      • 16 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      B

  28. MT_FC
    • 4 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    With Buendia possibly out, I had Buendia & Ings (my other striker is Toney so I don’t have much money put into forwards)

    Should I sub
    A) Benrahma for Buendia (0.5 left in bank)
    B) Barnes for Buendia & Antonio for Ings

    Thanks

  29. fplfansss
    • 7 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Any suggestions on this team?

    Sanchez
    TAA, Shaw, Amartey
    Salah, Bruno, Benrahma, Jota, Gundogan
    Antonio, Ings

    Foster, Obafemi, White, Ayling

  30. FOMFF
    • Fantasy Football Scout Member
    • 10 Years
    4 years, 3 months ago

    Best midfield benchwarmer for 4.5? On Brownhill for now.

    1. Andy_Social
      • 13 Years
      4 years, 3 months ago

      Prob no better.
      Bissou and Gilmour are alternatives.